Question on chanting, maybe to the Inos, and others

[Jundo]

I believe that chants such as the Heart Sutra are to be understood for their meaning, a Buddhist philosophical statement. Do not neglect an understanding of what is being proposed (in our "Way Beyond Words And Letters", the monks of old first understood what was in the Buddhist Books before burning them! There is something important being described in the Heart Sutra. )

Then they are to be felt beyond words, in the bones, because an experience of their meaning beyond mere intellectual understanding (the different between reading a cook book, cooking and tasting the soup. and letting the soup fill and become you!)

Then, one chants beyond and right through the words ... throwing oneself, literally, into the chant. At that point Japanese or Greek, Pirate or Puff Daddy, Words or Silence do not matter!

Gassho, J

[Nindo]

Well, yes, that is generally correct. However, there is some variation on this in the West from Sangha to Sangha, so my rule is "When in Rome, Bow as the Romans Bow". In our Sangha, where I am trying to soften or drop the hard border between "Priest" and "Lay" that one still tends to find at more "Japanese" settings like ZMM, I have rather encouraged the feeling that we all bow together.

Gassho, J

Sure, no worries. Maybe it does need to be spelled out somewhere, though (in the chant book)? I would find it confusing to attend zazenkai as a complete newcomer and see different people on the screen doing different things and be told "just follow along"!
Gassho,
Nindo

[Kyonin]

Hi guys.

Last year when I went to see the Dalai Lama, he spoke about the Heart Sutra. Someone asked him about its length and he said that it was several scrolls long in Tibetan. In services he and his monks chant a short version in both English and Tibetan.

Then he said that when he doesn't have time, he just chants...

A

(pronounced like in Avalokitesvara. Like A in Spanish, not like in English)

Saying just A with your heart and knowing the Sutra is enough, according to him.

I haven't tried it yet. I sometimes chant English, Spanish or Sino Japanese. The three work for me.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Myosha]

H,

"Saying just A with your heart and knowing the Sutra is enough, according to him."

TY


G,
M

[Jika]

A

"A" like anchor? (Use, not pronounciation)

Or my Ango wrist rubber band... All symbols for what the mind cannot say anyway.

Smooth, thanks!

Now we have "Insta-Zazen" and "Insta-Sutra".

Gassho,
Danny

[Hans]

Hello,

the seed syllable "A" has traditionally been known to be the shortest essential form of the Prajna-Paramita teachings. Focussing on and/or visualising the seed syllable A is an important practise in its own right in a range of Mahayana derived Vajrayane traditions like e.g. Japanese Shingon (google ajikan) and Dzogchen.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jundo]

My friend Hans is quite wrong. The shortest essential form of the Prajna-Paramita teachings is not even "A", yet holds every dictionary written or to be written and then some.

A is Um is the alpha and omega, all reality chanting, but that don't even cover it

Gassho, J

[Hans]

Hello Jundo,

quite right, quite right svaha...though one could split hairs and say that the form of the teachings and what they point to are both two and never divided...or instead one could just grab a cushion, drop off all stuff and see clearly for one's own no-self

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jundo]

Sure, no worries. Maybe it does need to be spelled out somewhere, though (in the chant book)? I would find it confusing to attend zazenkai as a complete newcomer and see different people on the screen doing different things and be told "just follow along"!
Gassho,
Nindo

Let me non-think about this, Nindo. Part of me appreciates the form of everyone bowing in the right places and together, with arms and elbows at the correct angles and such. The is a great beauty and power to such Japanese practices of form.

And part of me likes the chaos and democracy of everyone just bowing when there is a bow, everyone in their way, barriers between priest and practitioners dropped away. Maybe it is the informal Yankee in me.

Perhaps we should tighten up our form a bit, or take the Middle Way on this.

By the way, if you would really like to see an incredible demonstration of Japanese precision, here are a couple of vids. I would say that this is more Japanese culture that came to add something to Zen, than the other way. But it actually tells one something about the precision with which Zen training is conducted here. No, these are not military guys, just folks doing this for fun! I do not believe we will go this far, but something to keep in mind ... (jump to about 1:30 and the 4:30 in the video to really see some stuff) ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZkTCrolFlo

Actually reminds me of this group, where the lead singer is a famous martial artist, Genki Sudo ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ua64HbsBUo

More on Genki Sudo ...

http://www.graciemag.com/2013/10/take-a-look-at-genki-sudos-new-career-in-japan/

Gassho, J

[Dosho]

Sure, no worries. Maybe it does need to be spelled out somewhere, though (in the chant book)? I would find it confusing to attend zazenkai as a complete newcomer and see different people on the screen doing different things and be told "just follow along"!

Nindo,

I understand your confusion and I felt the same way. But, at least for me, that confusion really came down to fear of getting it wrong. I'm not saying that is the case with you, but over time I came to understand that I was working against myself in wanting things to be more clear. If it feels like chaos, be chaotic! If you feel completely at peace, pay more attention to the forms! And if you feel frustrated and want to chuck the computer out the window, lock the window and sit anyway!

These experiences ARE practice. Without these things there would be little for us to discuss.

Gassho,
Dosho

[jphiled]

@Jundo: if you want to see precision, you should watch Korean Pop music videos. ;-)

Anyhow, I kind lean toward a gentler, more structured introduction. A couple years ago I briefly visited a couple Rinzai Zen temples. The first one had a nice "intro" class which helped us ease into day one. I felt much more welcome by that temple but sadly it was in another state.

The second one did a more "throw you into it" approach where no one told me how to hold my teacup, etc. needless to say I stopped going after a few times.

[Nindo]

Nindo,

I understand your confusion and I felt the same way. But, at least for me, that confusion really came down to fear of getting it wrong. I'm not saying that is the case with you, but over time I came to understand that I was working against myself in wanting things to be more clear. If it feels like chaos, be chaotic! If you feel completely at peace, pay more attention to the forms! And if you feel frustrated and want to chuck the computer out the window, lock the window and sit anyway!

These experiences ARE practice. Without these things there would be little for us to discuss.

Gassho,
Dosho

Jundo and Dosho,

I am not advocating for military style sameness. I was just speaking on behalf of newcomers, who may appreciate a few pointers. True, it is a learning opportunity to pick things up as you go, but it's hard to do from a screen where you see only part of the action, often from a weird angle, and everybody else attending is downsized to a tiny icon. There are so many things to learn in Zen practice at the beginning .... yes it is a middle way to offer guidance and at the same time allow some stumbling.

At my recent retreat with the Calgary Soto group, a lengthy intro session was held about posture, bowing, kinhin etc. and then when we practiced, it was still all over the place. Every now and then somebody remembered though!

Gassho,
Nindo

[Jundo]

Jundo and Dosho,

I am not advocating for military style sameness. I was just speaking on behalf of newcomers, who may appreciate a few pointers. True, it is a learning opportunity to pick things up as you go, but it's hard to do from a screen where you see only part of the action, often from a weird angle, and everybody else attending is downsized to a tiny icon. There are so many things to learn in Zen practice at the beginning .... yes it is a middle way to offer guidance and at the same time allow some stumbling.

At my recent retreat with the Calgary Soto group, a lengthy intro session was held about posture, bowing, kinhin etc. and then when we practiced, it was still all over the place. Every now and then somebody remembered though!

Gassho,
Nindo

It is an excellent suggestion Nindo.

We have an introductory booklet ... Guide to Basic Sitting (PDF) ... with tips on basic sitting posture and the like ...

https://sites.google.com/site/jundotreeleaf/TreeleafBasicZazenInstructions.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1

... but maybe we should make and post a video about basic Zen Hall procedure and decorum. Hmmm. I think it a good suggestion.

Gasso, Jundo

[Amelia]

Personally, I would like to see that video happen. Good resource.

About chanting in English:

Chanting in another language feels "special", "educated" maybe, and/ or "spiritual". When that is stripped away and I am chanting words that everyone around me can understand and judge as "nothing special, spiritual, or heightened", well, that's part of practice to me.

[Daiyo]

Personally, I would like to see that video happen. Good resource.

Me too!


gassho,
Walter