Wasting Time...

[Jundo]

The more I've been sitting zazen, the more I've realized that there is no summit. There's still a mountain, but there's no need to get to that topless-top. You just climb. You can climb up-ways or down-ways, sideways. All good.

Well, of course ... we also try not to wander in aimless circles (thought no place to get) or right off a cliff either (even though, well, there is no place ultimately to fall even as we fall!) **

Gassho, J

** Another one of those seeming contradictions that may make Walter dizzy!

[Kokuu]

Though you say "it is," there's nothing which "is" can confirm. Though you say "it is not," there's nothing that "is not" can negate. When "is" and "is not" are left behind and gain and loss are forgotten, then you are clean and naked, free and at ease.

-- Vimalakirti's Gate of Nonduality (Blue Cliff Record Case 84)


Gassho
Kokuu

[Nameless]

Nothing to add really. Much metta to you dharmasponge. Think most of us have pondered such questions. Sometimes, a question answers a question. Can we feel we are wasting or using time if we don't have any ideas about waste or time? In the style of the Diamond Sutra "There is no time to waste, thus it is only called wasting time."

Gassho, John

[dharmasponge]

Either way...back on the cushion again in the morning....

Thanks everyone.

_/|\_

[Kyotai]

Hi Walter,

I know this blows your mind, and here I go again with some more.

We live in a culture of extremes and absolutes. We are very used to be EXTREMELY happy with things and situations. We are pushed to live sadness to the point of depression.

Media pushes opinions onto us and we need to take sides all the time. Good guys vs bad guys. Good politicians vs corrupted ones. Races. Sexuality. Electronic devices. Football teams. It's all absolutes.

That's what's expected from us.

However, I look at it this way.

Sitting and zen give me the tools to look at life from all possible angles. No one is 100% bad or evil. No situation is 100% good. Not all pizza is 100% good. There are countless reasons why things are as they are. Even Videla (former Argentinan dictator) or Hussein, despite what history say, weren't 100% evil and perhaps they were in suffering... just like any other sentient being.

It's not that we live in limbo and can't define sides.

It's that through our practice we can see sides and options that were hidden before. The more you practice, sit and watch life unfold, the clearer it gets. Trust me.

Now that I think of it... this is why you are still here, practicing, sewing and being part of Treeleaf. Could it be that something inside you knows better?

Hope I didn't add to the confusion.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Wonderful Kyonin. For me too, but said much better then I could.

I use to pour over the stats for the next phone upgrade..now..I am going to be downgrading soon lol. Adding technology or other stuff to my life just doesn't appeal like it use to.

Gassho, Shawn

[Kyotai]

Just to add. Several times over the last 8 years of sitting I have often felt the same...like I am wasting time...whenever I would quit zazen...it wouldn't even be a week and it would feel like the world gets a little bit less less friendly, worsening with time. I always come back.

Gassho, Shawn

[dharmasponge]

Mongen (and Jishin and Rich) ... Lovely.

The Buddha preached endless Sutta and Sutra for endless ears. All Good in the Beginning, Good in the Middle, Good in the End. As Mahayanists and Zen Buddhists, our Path is more the Diamond and Heart Sutras (the Perfection of Wisdom Literature), the Lotus and Huayen ... and also Such which shines right through the words and analysis. I would offer that the Satipattana Sutta (The Way of Mindfulness) was an early means to survey the body and mind, realizing that we are a composite without fixed "selfness", and that all is impermanent and not an object for attachment. The Abidhamma is likewise an excellent analysis (which we make use of too) on the way the mind puts the world together.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html

But let me remind you of the final sections of the Satipattana Sutta, how one is to abide when the analysis is done ... in Calm, Concentration and Equanimity.

It is very difficult for some folks to just be fully at home and at one with and as what is, and thus the personal human measure of some waste and lack. If one knows how to sit without a sense of waste and lack, totally at home ... then one is home. The Buddha taught of non-attaining in the great Chapter 17 of the Diamond Sutra ...



Knowing this Non-Attainment of the Buddha Field as one sits, to the marrow of the marrow, is the Attaining of highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind. Crazy how that works.

Gassho, J

Is there a belief in Zen that the Theravada path is a sort of entry level, like an introduction to Annica Dukkha and Anatta?

[Nameless]

Depends on who you ask. Therevadans get a bit riled when their way is called entry level or the "lower vehicle," even though it's described as such often in Mahayana texts. Prefer to think of it as a different perspective on the same Dharma.

Gassho,
John

[Nindo]

Is there a belief in Zen that the Theravada path is a sort of entry level, like an introduction to Annica Dukkha and Anatta?

As a student of both Vipassana and Zen, may I offer this:
The focus of Theravada practice is to liberate one self. The focus of Zen is to liberate all sentient beings.
I would not say Theravada is entry level. It is very advanced once you get into the 3rd and 4th foundation of mindfulness, jhanas and all that.
But then what do you do with the insights? What do you do with this self that dissolves more and more?
Zen's answer is: service in wisdom and compassion.

Over the years, I've found it helpful to do retreats with a Vipassana teacher, while my at home practice is Zen. As Hans said, you need to find what works for you.

Gassho,
Nindo

[Daitetsu]

Hi Nindo,

Thanks for sharing how you combine Vipassana and Zen - very interesting!
I am currently reading a book by Andreas Altmann in which he writes about his experiences at a Vipassana retreat. Very nice so far.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Daitetsu]

Hi Walter,

I see: "this and not this" "this and that" "neither this nor that" "good yet bad" "attain the non-attainable" "save but nothing to save".

Could it be that things are presented that "undefined" way so as we can not grab a single hair for not falling into nothingness?

The thing is: Words must fail if you want to describe IT.
Hence all those (seemingly) paradoxes...
As soon as the mind sets in you miss it.

Or as the old Taoists said:

"The Tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things."

[. . .]

Look, and it can't be seen.
Listen, and it can't be heard.
Reach, and it can't be grasped.

Above, it isn't bright.
Below, it isn't dark.
Seamless, unnamable,
it returns to the realm of nothing.
Form that includes all forms,
image without an image,
subtle, beyond all conception.

Approach it and there is no beginning;
follow it and there is no end.
You can't know it, but you can be it,
at ease in your own life.
Just realize where you come from:
this is the essence of wisdom."

From the Tao Te Ching (Mitchell translation) - IMHO a must read for any Zen practitioner as well.


Just keep on practicing and the questions will disappear.
And above all - relax.

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Jundo]

As a student of both Vipassana and Zen, may I offer this:
The focus of Theravada practice is to liberate one self. The focus of Zen is to liberate all sentient beings.

Hi Nindo,

I would just add that that, of course, all sentient beings are one self, one self is all sentient being. So, in Zazen one seeks (and non-seeks) to liberate one self as well.

Why "non-seek"? Because what "self" or "all sentient beings" to liberate after all? (See the Diamond Sutra passage quote above about such).

And because there is not "self" or "all sentient beings" to liberate after all, Zen's answer is service in wisdom and compassion to save those sentient beings (and one self) who may not yet realize such fact.

The thing is: Words must fail if you want to describe IT.
Hence all those (seemingly) paradoxes...
As soon as the mind sets in you miss it.

Or as the old Taoists said:

"The Tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things."

This is so, but Zen Folks generally even avoid to talk in terms of "the eternal" because just another human measure (eternal vs. finite) that we cast away. Perhaps we might say "neither time nor timeless" as closer to the mark, but might cast such away too as ultimately not necessary to say (even that should not be "told"). The Buddha generally cautioned against a belief in some kind of "eternalism", and also against thinking of Buddhism as some meaningless and vacuous "nihilism".

"The Tao" is also a rather misleading name, because one may believe this to be some "thing" of fixed identity standing apart from us, much like the table across the room. (Even words like "Buddha" or the like carry that risk). So, best to drop such names, categories and divisions too as ultimately dividing and misleading.

Gassho, J

PS - Note for Buddhist History Wonks: One will sometimes see words like "eternal" used with regard to Buddha, especially in texts such as the Shurangama Sutra. For example:

Who would have thought that production and extinction, coming and going are fundamentally the eternal wonderful light of the Tathagata, the unmoving, all-pervading perfection, the wonderful nature of True Suchness! If within the true and eternal nature one seeks coming and going, confusion and enlightenment, or birth and death, one will never find them.

... the nature of emptiness is eternal and unchanging ...

... the fundamental wonderful mind possessed by all as being eternal and never ceasing to be ...

... But because beings, from time without beginning, have pursued forms and sounds and have followed their thoughts as they turn and flow, they still are not enlightened to the wonderful eternal pure nature. ...

However, it is for such reasons and others that many Buddhist scholars (Dogen too) have been doubtful of the Shurangama, and believe it a very late Sutra composed in China and heavily influence by Daoist viewpoints. (Scholars say "apocryphal" sutra because it was probably composed in China without any earlier version existing in India, although all Sutta and Sutra are human creations in some way).

http://online.sfsu.edu/rone/Buddhism/authenticity.htm

Dogen actually seems to have felt the same way, although he also sometimes quoted from passages in the Surangama. He wrote in the Hokyo-ki of a conversation on this with his teacher, Ju-Ching, also not a Surangama fan (pg 6 and 7 here) ...

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=m...dia%22&f=false

[Kokuu]

Hi all

Going back to the original question, skeptical doubt is one of the five hindrances, along with sloth, restlessness, desire and ill will.

As many have said, it is not an uncommon experience among sitters. Personally I found it the hardest the deal with as the other four were obviously hindrances but skeptical doubt seemed far more convincing as it related to practice itself and seemed to have my best interests at heart - "Are you sure you are doing the right practice for you?" or "Are you sure you shouldn't be doign something else instead?"

Seen as a hindrance its intents are more obvious. As Hans said, it may be that you could be doing another practice that is better for you but my prediction is that the same doubts would come up if the swtich is made such as "What if Shikantaza was actually better?".

Anyway, I am sure there is much traditional material on dealing with the hindrances.

As far as Theravada being entry level, some Mahayana teachers and traditions have said that. As far as my experience goes, vipassana can get you to the same place as Shikantaza. Also, 'Hinayana' practices can be done with Bodhisattva mind to free all beings and Mahayana practices with self interest. Since Mahayana came later it tends to incorporate all of the paths before it whereas that is not true of Theravada.

Gassho
Kokuu

[Jundo]

Hi all

Going back to the original question, skeptical doubt is one of the five hindrances, along with sloth, restlessness, desire and ill will.

As many have said, it is not an uncommon experience among sitters. Personally I found it the hardest the deal with as the other four were obviously hindrances but skeptical doubt seemed far more convincing as it related to practice itself and seemed to have my best interests at heart - "Are you sure you are doing the right practice for you?" or "Are you sure you shouldn't be doign something else instead?"

Seen as a hindrance its intents are more obvious. As Hans said, it may be that you could be doing another practice that is better for you but my prediction is that the same doubts would come up if the swtich is made such as "What if Shikantaza was actually better?".

Anyway, I am sure there is much traditional material on dealing with the hindrances.

As far as Theravada being entry level, some Mahayana teachers and traditions have said that. As far as my experience goes, vipassana can get you to the same place as Shikantaza. Also, 'Hinayana' practices can be done with Bodhisattva mind to free all beings and Mahayana practices with self interest. Since Mahayana came later it tends to incorporate all of the paths before it whereas that is not true of Theravada.

Gassho
Kokuu

Kokuu speaks much Wisdom in all the above. There is nothing better or worse about Vipassana meditation vs. Shikantaza, and just different ways with objectives that are not that different really. Same but different, different but just the same.

Perhaps the aspect which is special about Shikantaza is the greater emphasis on not being a goal oriented practice (although this radical "goallessness" is a means of reaching a kind of "goal" which is best non-reached through radical goallessness! ), sitting as thorough Wholeness and Completeness (although that does not mean there are not aspects of us ... greed anger and ignorance ... that are not in need of repair!). However, I suppose it is possible to sit even Vipassana with such an attitude. Or, for some folks, perhaps there is a time to practice one ... a time to practice the other ... all in their time.

Gassho, J

[dharmasponge]

Thanks Jundo, Hans and everyone else who has taken time again to help.

I guess my questioning still boils down to the idea of goallessness as Jundo said. I still having this idea at the back of my mind as I walk to the Zafu. Clearly I DO have a goal. Otherwise I would stay in bed (another goal). It's manifestly clear that I/we have a goal in Zen. To quiet neurosis. To experience a calmer life. Or in my case to experience that which Zen seems only ever to imply and intimate about.

Why does you (anyone) sit?

_/|\_