Wasting Time...

[dharmasponge]

Hello everyone...

I am getting really concerned that the time I am spending 'just sitting' is a waste of time and effort.

Effort in the sense that I dedicate time each morning before dawn to train. As 'just sitting' is so radical a practice from what I have become accustomed to I often ruminate about whether its really the way to go!

Don't get me wrong, I seem to be getting insight(s) of sorts - though not seeking them. Like I am getting a sense of late that I am experiencing the obvious - does that at all make sense to anyone?? Rev Jiyu Kennetts books are helping...

But there is still that concern that I am not following what I always thought were the words of the Buddha - for instance the Satipattana Sutta and the Abidhamma.

Yet, still something compels me to just sit?!

[Jishin]

Read the Heart Sutra prior to Zazen...also no attainment with nothing to attain...

Gassho, Jishin

[Rich]

Living in delusion is the waste of time. Just sitting is the gate to joy and ease. And ofcause ice hockey. Just put everything down for awhile and relax.

Kind regards. /\

[Hans]

Dear Dharmasponge,

in my book we will all follow our heart at the end of the day. It may be that you have to get more accustomed to just dropping everything, or it might be that a different style of practise might suit you better.
We are all different, so there is no one-fix-for-all. Something I have seen in myself and others numerous times though is the tendency to not allow oneself to ever arrive fully. The grass will always be greener on the other side of the fence.

It MIGHT be that sometimes the grass actually IS greener on a side of a fence, but mostly it is our own issues and reactive patterns that keep us from finding and experiencing that the grass is fully green right where we are. Whether this is a one off thing or a pattern (like moving away froma practise again and again) can only be answered by yourself.

As for the Abidhamma, it was written after the Buddha's death...and although it might be closer to the historical Buddha's ideas, you are not the historical Buddha. In fact nobody knows who the historical Buddha was.

What does your heart say? Do you feel the Theravadins have it right and others have it wrong? Was anyone ever awakened after the Buddha's death who was not a Theravada practitioner?

The answer that counts will be found in your heart, not in exterior authorities. If your heart (meaning the deepest and most intimate strata of what makes you you) decides that some kind of scriptural authority is what decides your form of practise, then that is an answer too. You should know however, that you are always the one giving authority to something. No religious teaching becomes valid and binding for you unless you open the door and invite it into your house.

Our culture has subtly indoctrinated us to want to look for a perfect formula, to find something where we are sure that this is right, we often live in fear of doing something wrong.

My own life is a continuous mistake, but the question is whether as humans we want to awaken to our own delusions, or instead maybe to be deluded about our attainment of something unattainable.



Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jundo]

Dear Dharmasponge,

in my book we will all follow our heart at the end of the day. It may be that you have to get more accustomed to just dropping everything, or it might be that a different style of practise might suit you better.
We are all different, so there is no one-fix-for-all. Something I have seen in myself and others numerous times though is the tendency to not allow oneself to ever arrive fully. The grass will always be greener on the other side of the fence.

It MIGHT be that sometimes the grass actually IS greener on a side of a fence, but mostly it is our own issues and reactive patterns that keep us from finding and experiencing that the grass is fully green right where we are. Whether this is a one off thing or a pattern (like moving away froma practise again and again) can only be answered by yourself.

Mongen (and Jishin and Rich) ... Lovely.

The Buddha preached endless Sutta and Sutra for endless ears. All Good in the Beginning, Good in the Middle, Good in the End. As Mahayanists and Zen Buddhists, our Path is more the Diamond and Heart Sutras (the Perfection of Wisdom Literature), the Lotus and Huayen ... and also Such which shines right through the words and analysis. I would offer that the Satipattana Sutta (The Way of Mindfulness) was an early means to survey the body and mind, realizing that we are a composite without fixed "selfness", and that all is impermanent and not an object for attachment. The Abidhamma is likewise an excellent analysis (which we make use of too) on the way the mind puts the world together.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wayof.html

But let me remind you of the final sections of the Satipattana Sutta, how one is to abide when the analysis is done ... in Calm, Concentration and Equanimity.

It is very difficult for some folks to just be fully at home and at one with and as what is, and thus the personal human measure of some waste and lack. If one knows how to sit without a sense of waste and lack, totally at home ... then one is home. The Buddha taught of non-attaining in the great Chapter 17 of the Diamond Sutra ...

At that time, the venerable Subhuti then asked the Buddha, "World-Honored One, may I ask you a question again? If sons or daughters of a good family want to develop the highest, most fulfilled and awakened mind, if they wish to attain the Highest Perfect Wisdom, what should they do to help quiet their drifting minds and master their thinking?"

The Buddha replied:

"Subhuti, a good son or daughter who wants to give rise to the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind must create this resolved attitude of mind: 'I must help to lead all beings to the shore of awakening, but, after these beings have become liberated, in truth I know that not even a single being has been liberated.' Why is this so? If a disciple cherishes the idea of a self, a person, a living being or a universal self, then that person is not an authentic disciple. Why? Because in fact there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind."

"What do you think, Subhuti? In ancient times, when the Buddha was living with Dipankara Buddha, did he attain anything called the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind?"

"No, Most Honored One. According to what I understand from the teachings of the Buddha, there is no attaining of anything called the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind."

The Buddha said:

"You are correct, Subhuti. In fact, there does not exist any so-called highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind that the Buddha attains. Because if there had been any such thing, Dipankara Buddha would not have predicted of me, 'In the future, you will come to be a Buddha known as The Most Honored One'. This prediction was made because there is, in fact, nothing to be attained. Someone would be mistaken to say that the Buddha has attained the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind because there is no such thing as a highest, most fulfilled, or awakened mind to be attained."

...

"Subhuti, it is just the same when a disciple speaks of liberating numberless sentient beings. If they have in mind any arbitrary conception of sentient beings or of definite numbers, then they are unworthy of being called a disciple. Subhuti, my teachings reveal that even such a thing as is called a 'disciple' is non-existent. Furthermore, there is really nothing for a disciple to liberate."

"A true disciple knows that there is no such thing as a self, a person, a living being, or a universal self. A true disciple knows that all things are devoid of selfhood, devoid of any separate individuality."

To make this teaching even more emphatic, the lord Buddha continued,

"If a disciple were to speak as follows, 'I have to create a serene and beautiful Buddha field', that person is not yet truly a disciple. Why? What the Buddha calls a 'serene and beautiful Buddha field' is not in fact a serene and beautiful Buddha field. And that is why it is called a serene and beautiful Buddha field. Subhuti, only a disciple who is wholly devoid of any conception of separate selfhood is worthy of being called a disciple."

http://www.diamond-sutra.com/diamond...xt/page17.html

Knowing this Non-Attainment of the Buddha Field as one sits, to the marrow of the marrow, is the Attaining of highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind. Crazy how that works.

Gassho, J

[Ishin]

Living in delusion is the waste of time. Just sitting is the gate to joy and ease. And ofcause ice hockey. Just put everything down for awhile and relax.

Kind regards. /\

C

[Myoku]

I think Rich nailed it,
I too often, very often feel I waste time. The feeling of wasting time for me is an indicator that I'm just lacking calm. I also think sitting over the years transformed me, and I dont have the impression that the transformation is bad, or that it would have happened without sitting.
Gassho
Myoku

[Daiyo]

Hi,

It is very difficult for me to understand all of this.
I just go, lit a candle perhaps an incense stick, sit and try to drop everything while sitting.
Sometimes it's clear, sometimes it's cloudy. So far it's perfect.

But when not sitting, I am very confused with all this "indefinition" found almost everywhere in zen.
Excuse me if I am too simplistic, I can not find another way to describe my confusion.
I see: "this and not this" "this and that" "neither this nor that" "good yet bad" "attain the non-attainable" "save but nothing to save".

Could it be that things are presented that "undefined" way so as we can not grab a single hair for not falling into nothingness?
Could it be that we so hardly need solid bases to ground our theories that when nothing is given we panic?
Shall I learn to live with that if I wish to walk this zen path?
Sorry for all these questions

Everytime I think about this I end up feeling dizzy...

Gassho,
Walter

[Hans]

Hello,

Zen means pitching a tent in groundlessness. Again and again. Nothing to hold onto. Scary stuff.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Amelia]

I used to feel that this practice was like a riddle I couldn't solve. I understood, but something wasn't working.

Now I don't really remember what it was that I thought I wasn't getting. Just took some time, is all.

[Kyonin]

Hi Dharmasponge,

I hope I understood your concern. If not, please ignore this.

The way I see it, we live in a task and goals oriented world. We need to achieve this. We can only be happy if we go up in our careers. We need to buy this. Hell, just yesterday new iPhones were announced and people went nuts for them.

Civilization commands us to achieve stuff to be reliable people, to be happy.

So, getting on the zafu and drop all this creates a conflict of interest in the mind. Pretty often we come up with thoughts like "I'd be better off working on this", "Why the hell am I sitting there if I need to go to X to do Y", "I'm wasting time here. And time is money. I'd better go to my ballet class" :P

The mind and social programming will always fight with zazen.

And that's precisely why sitting zazen is a jewel. We need to sit in order to drop everything, be calm and ready for life. At the same time, all life is zazen, where walls and tasks and objectives and pressure are dropped.

To me, it's zazen is the missing gear on this huge machine called Civilization.

But then again, I could be wrong.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Jundo]

Another thread where everyone says what should be said so nicely, and I should just keep my mouth tightly shut.

Gassho, J

[Kyonin]

Hi Walter,

I know this blows your mind, and here I go again with some more.

We live in a culture of extremes and absolutes. We are very used to be EXTREMELY happy with things and situations. We are pushed to live sadness to the point of depression.

Media pushes opinions onto us and we need to take sides all the time. Good guys vs bad guys. Good politicians vs corrupted ones. Races. Sexuality. Electronic devices. Football teams. It's all absolutes.

That's what's expected from us.

However, I look at it this way.

Sitting and zen give me the tools to look at life from all possible angles. No one is 100% bad or evil. No situation is 100% good. Not all pizza is 100% good. There are countless reasons why things are as they are. Even Videla (former Argentinan dictator) or Hussein, despite what history say, weren't 100% evil and perhaps they were in suffering... just like any other sentient being.

It's not that we live in limbo and can't define sides.

It's that through our practice we can see sides and options that were hidden before. The more you practice, sit and watch life unfold, the clearer it gets. Trust me.

Now that I think of it... this is why you are still here, practicing, sewing and being part of Treeleaf. Could it be that something inside you knows better?

Hope I didn't add to the confusion.

Gassho,

Kyonin

Hi,

It is very difficult for me to understand all of this.
I just go, lit a candle perhaps an incense stick, sit and try to drop everything while sitting.
Sometimes it's clear, sometimes it's cloudy. So far it's perfect.

But when not sitting, I am very confused with all this "indefinition" found almost everywhere in zen.
Excuse me if I am too simplistic, I can not find another way to describe my confusion.
I see: "this and not this" "this and that" "neither this nor that" "good yet bad" "attain the non-attainable" "save but nothing to save".

Could it be that things are presented that "undefined" way so as we can not grab a single hair for not falling into nothingness?
Could it be that we so hardly need solid bases to ground our theories that when nothing is given we panic?
Shall I learn to live with that if I wish to walk this zen path?
Sorry for all these questions

Everytime I think about this I end up feeling dizzy...

Gassho,
Walter

[Joyo]

Another thread where everyone says what should be said so nicely, and I should just keep my mouth tightly shut.

Gassho, J

No, no, please don't. I have so enjoyed reading (and learning) from each of the posts here, including yours Jundo. Thank you very much everyone.

Gassho,
Joyo

[jeff_u]

Good day everyone,

Prior to sitting zazen, meditation was training. There was something to get out it. Mastering the breath. Eliminating thoughts. Gaining some kind of superpowers I guess. It was a mountain that could be climbed and conquered. Getting over that I-need-to-get-something-out-this programming has been my practice (I still have a lot of trouble letting go of trying to control my breath...ugh). The more I've been sitting zazen, the more I've realized that there is no summit. There's still a mountain, but there's no need to get to that topless-top. You just climb. You can climb up-ways or down-ways, sideways. All good. It's the climbing and not climbing that is life. In this way, as Jundo always reminds us, zazen is all of life and all of life is zazen.

Gassho,
-Jeff