The F-bomb

[Byokan]

Hi All,

I’ve been thinking about something the last few months. I’m going to have to use the F-word here. Faith. It used to be a dirty word to me. It’s something I rejected in religion, and part of the appeal of Buddhism for me in the beginning was that faith did not seem to be required. You do the work and figure things out for yourself. I like that. Well, what do you know, these many years later I’m starting to think that this trust that we put into the practice, this surrendering to just what is... I think maybe this is a kind of faith.


It’s not a blind faith in something or someone. It’s more like “good faith”. The dictionary defines good faith as “honesty or sincerity of intention.” Give the practice a real try in good faith for a while and see what happens. Have a little faith in the process and let it work a bit, then decide for yourself if you want to keep going or not.


Signing on with Treeleaf was an act of faith for me, quite scary actually, as I am not a joiner. Since I joined I have committed to shikantaza in good faith, and have set aside my other practices and ways of meditating. I thought I’d try it for a while. And... wow.


I’m not educated in Buddhist sutras or canon. But I don’t often hear Buddhists talk about faith. It feels weird to even write this, I have avoided the word for so long. What do you guys think about faith? Does it have a place in Zen? Is it part of your practice?

Gassho
Lisa

[Daitetsu]

Hi Lisa,

Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts.
For me Zen is about being with what is, letting go of attachments, accepting, watching reality without judging - actually learning to just be without any masks or adding anything. In zazen it is actualising/realising ones true nature and trying to take this into every day life.
We are learning the ordinariness and sacredness of every thing there is, since we are everything there is.

One can experience directly the (non-)fruits of this practice each and every day for oneself. So for me personally there is no faith involved.

I call it a practice or a (pathless) path rather than a belief.
However, I agree one part of this practice is also about trusting in the flow of life. But one finds out with time whether this trust was justified or not.

If you look back at the time before you began with practice what has changed? Compare the Lisa of today with the Lisa before practice. This should give an important answer IMHO.

Just my two cents...

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Hans]

Dear Lisa,

depending on one's language, words like "faith", "truth", "belief" etc. can carry a lot of baggage And sometimes they don't.

Blind faith in terms of "shut up and believe whatever the authority tells you" has no place in the Dharma.

Whilst at the beginning of one's path there is definitely a strong feeling of "a leap of faith" for many, as one stays with the current and momentum of this practise of realisation, a different taste might enter, which could be classically called Shraddha in Sanskrit.

It might entail a powerful sense of deep trusting with surrender, in the same way that one might fight against acknowledging the fact that e.g. one truly loves a person with skin, bone and marrow...until one really opnes up to it unconditionally.

I like the classical picture that illustrates dharmic faith: Like a bird that trusts the tree in which it builds its nest.

http://buddhism.about.com/od/buddhismglossarys/g/Saddha-Shraddha.htm

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Saijun]

Hello Lisa,

When I first converted, I was deeply suspicious of anything or anyone who asked me to have "faith." Buddhism seemed at the time to be a more empirical religion, and I still think that to an extent.

Later, I came to view the role of faith in Buddhism as the same motivation a scientist has for an experiment; enough faith that the hypothesis is correct to actually test it out. I still think that to an extent.

Then, I came to a place where faith faded away in response to the arising of direct knowledge. No need for faith.

The Dharma is subtle and profound, and Buddha-nature permeates everything. Eventually practice begins to become self-actualizing practice, and then faith doesn't matter--one knows that there is nothing that is not practice, and the Dharma pulls us inexorably along no matter what.

I have faith in this.

May you forever be well,

Saijun

[Rich]

Great question, Lisa. I think faith is a very important part of my life and practice. It's not an intellectual faith but a deep trust in being open to the universe. To whatever is, whatever happens. You could even call it a trust in god if that's how you choose to relate to IT. At the same time as part of our dualistic nature there is a great doubt about what is, a kind of not knowing. Maybe enlightenment is a total integration and balance of faith and doubt.

Kind regards. /\

[Jundo]

Hi,

I like so much what many folks are writing here.

I would say that we do need a kind of trust and confidence in the Teachings and Practice before seeing any results (I hesitate to use the word "faith" because it is such a loaded term in the west), much like one must trust and have confidence in the doctor and the medicine prescribed even before the cure. One can look at the diploma and white coat, but one expects to see some results with time (even in a Practice such as ours where the "results" are sought primarily by dropping all seeking and thought of "results" ... all to work the Big Cure! )

And we also need a great Gratitude Trust and a Willingness to Yield that is much like faith ... More on that below ...

Gassho, J

This is something I preach from time to time, but I thought it worth saying again. Perhaps it is good to shout it clearly. Namely, in Buddhism, we have a strange attitude toward life and the universe ...

I would not call us "theists". And I would not call us "atheists"**. Yet we have a very definite gratitude, faith and confidence in this realm in which we live.

For we see and experience clearly the deep interconnection of all phenomena of this world, taste that our birth in sentient form was not but random outcome, sense a reason and direction to human life and all of creation, honor this place, express deep gratitude, trust and a willingness to allow all to be.

We are not "theists", for we do not ultimately require or cling to a particular 'god' or 'gods' to run the show. (That's not to say that we can't if we wish, and one can be a Zen Buddhist or Zennist while a Christian, Muslim, Jew or the like. We can. We neither require a "god", nor push any god away.).

We are not "atheists", as we do not see reality through nihilistic eyes, as merely cold, dead, chaotic, random and pointless, without guiding hand, system or path.*** (Again, one might combine Zen practice with such an outlook, but it might make one's practice something cold and dead in result).

I sometimes compare our attitude to that of innocent babes with a deep trust in this source and world that birthed us, that feeds us and which somehow allows us air to breathe. Sure, it is not a perfect place as we might always wish it to be (and certainly, if I were in charge of its making, I might choose to do things a bit differently), but it is an amazing place and a miracle that we are here. Do you know all that was involved in allowing that to be, in allowing you to be ... from the stars ... to the flowers and trees ... every twist and turn of history and natural conditions that allowed you to be?

No, as the spring time comes following the winter, and life returns ... I say that we are grateful to that which allows it all to be, and us to be. Thank you.

In dropping our sense of separate self, we trade our limited perspective (as but tiny cogs, pointlessly spinning) for a vision of the whole "Universal Machine" ... 'tis precisely us, and we are that. Amazing!! AMAZING!

Perhaps what we have is a deep faith in "god" ... but without the need or demand to know her name, her story or all that she wishes of us. We place no demands upon her, even the demand that she be "god".

We are alive, so I expect we should live! Gee, if something or someone went to all the trouble to let that be possible, then we should just go ahead with it and live our life well

... and, though I think it unlikely, even if it all just happened for no purpose at all, we had best go ahead with it and live our life well!. In any case, live life well!

Seemingly, when we think of all the endless crossroads at which history might have gone otherwise ... all that was necessary for our lives to be here and now ... we should not be here. Yet here we are ... leading to the conclusion that we should be here. And whatever brought us here, we trust. Thank you.

We express a willingness to yield, to allow, to embrace. We Celebrate and Sink Right In!

AMAZING! Shout it from the Rooftops!

Endless deep bows of gratitude.

Gassho, Jundo

** Though one might be perhaps a "Theist" or an "Atheist" and still pursue Zen Practice, just as one might be a liberal or conservative, believer in U.F.O.s or not, man or woman, tall or short. Perhaps the only beliefs that might not fit with Zen Practice would be, for example, being a member of the KKK or a bomb-throwing terrorist ... due to the anger and violence there.

*** I have also been rightly criticized for associating all "atheists" with a nihilistic view of the universe, cold and dead and without purpose. I have since been corrected by several such folks, who let me know that not all atheists are of such a view.

[Nindo]

Great faith, great doubt, great determination are called the three pillars of Zen. May be a little more popular on the Rinzai side than in Soto, but I think I read it from some Soto sources as well.

Personally I do think faith is important, in the sense of trust, and I don't have a problem to call that faith.

Most of the work [in Zen practice] takes place while sitting zazen, because in reality there's nothing anyone can give us. There's nothing that we lack. Each one of us is perfect and complete. That's why it is said that there are no Zen teachers and nothing to teach. But this truth must be realized by each one of us. Great faith, great doubt, and great determination are three essentials for that realization. It is a boundless faith in oneself and in the ability to realize oneself and make oneself free, and a deep and penetrating doubt which ask: Who am I? What is life? What is truth? What is God? What is reality?

This great faith and great doubt are in dynamic tension with each other, and work to provide the real cutting edge of koan practice. When great faith and great doubt are also accompanied by great determination (the determination of "Seven times knocked down, eight times up"), we have at our disposal the power necessary to break through our delusive way of thinking and realize the full potential of our lives.

[Meikyo]

Thank you so much for this topic. Both interesting and inspiring.

I concur to what already has been put so nicely be others. Some faith of the "it works"-kind is needed. I don't truly know whether or not my chair will collapse the next time I sit down but so far it hasn't so I go on using it "in good faith as you might might say. If you're comfortable with your own practice and feel that it works it probably does and some kind of confidence in the dharma (in lure of the classical "faith") naturally arises.

As a secular type of Buddhist I see the dharma as a method (Soto Zen being my favorite handle on it) not as a religion or faith in the ordinary sense. I have confidence in this method both because it makes sense theoretically speaking and because in so far as I can I have observed that it works. I go with what works for me. Zen for me is about living as it is. Living in the fact rather than the wish. So I go on because I can't see any good reason not to. Sometimes there is flowery language but I don't mind as I am a fan of words and philosophy and interested in religion anyway. Also it's to be expected from the context in which the teaching arose. It still makes a profound sense either way. As for the grand purpose and hereafter and faith I won't pretend to know anything or act as if I did. I try to go with my integrity i. e. my educated guesswork.

Gassho and thank you to all for the opputionity to ponder this issue.

>>> atheist not bleak.jpg

[Seimyo]

Thank you for this thread and for giving me comfort with the "F-word" again.

Gassho
Seimyo

[Kaishin]

At some point Jundo said he prefers the words "trust" and "dedication" rather than "faith" or "belief." Those sit better with me. Sorry my searching is failing, I can't find those posts. Maybe he never said it :P

[Mp]

the words "trust" and "dedication" rather than "faith" or "belief."

Yes Kaishin, I too agree ... if I use this Sangha as an example: I "trust" this Sangha and I am "dedicated" to this Sangha. To me these words more grounded and concrete in this moment and not just an idea/thought. =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Jika]

Very interesting and helpful thread, thank you all.

Gassho,
Danny

[Joyo]

Hi Lisa, I can definitely relate to what you are saying. I recall, back when I first started practicing Buddhism, reading somewhere that Buddhist "faith" was faith in the practice. And my mind often goes back to that now. I have faith in the dharma, in this sangha, in the teachings as I have experienced results. (and sometimes those results are just the letting go of expectations of any results at all) Ideas and/or thoughts, I don't really give those much thought anymore either. But faith in my practice, yes, most definitely. Thank you for sharing, and for being part of this sangha!!

Gassho
Joyo

[Byokan]

Hi All,

Wow, so many great and thought-provoking responses!


The word that keeps coming up here is trust, and I think that’s what it’s about. Daitetsu, you are right about the (non) fruits of practice, and direct experience. This is what sets this kind of faith apart from blind faith in dogma or individuals. Joyo, yes, this is it; faith in the practice! The balance of trust, faith, doubt, determination, confidence, and dedication that so many have mentioned is essential.


Thank you Hans for the new word: shraddha, yes, that’s it! Kind of like riding a bike or learning to swim, in the beginning we have no trust and we overthink everything, but when we relax, have trust and that willingness to yield, suddenly... we’re doing it! I am starting to feel Saijun’s “inexorable pull of the dharma.” It’s exhilarating and at the same time, finally, so simple and restful.


So much wisdom here, such generosity. Deep bows and gratitude to you all.

Gassho
Lisa

[Yugen]

The F-bomb

A wonderful thread.

Faith is trust isn"it? We are comfortable with 'trust" but not 'faith?' Perhaps because of the cultural connotation of the "f" word.....

Zen practice requires great faith, great doubt, and great determination. Faith for me means nothing more than having sufficient trust in oneself and ones Sangha. In oneself as the ultimate source of the wisdom we seek, and in the Sangha to support us on that path.

Language in my view is important. I hate to surrender cultural ownership of the "f" word .....

My opinion only.

Deep bows
Yugen