The F-bomb

[Daiyo]

I think most of us who come from a Christian/Catholic environment learnt somehow to identify "faith" with "fear".
That's what (on-purpose or not) we were taught, or what many of us understood.
And thus the "f" word got ambiguous.

Also my humble opinion.


Gassho

[Byokan]

Hi Yugen,

yes, I agree completely, language and words are important. The word faith is different from the word trust, it seems to have a deeper idea of surrender to it. Maybe this is why it was a scary and repellent word to me for so long. I do not want to be a mindless faith zombie, giving over my capacity to make decisions and use my own discernment. I say we take this word back from those who would make it the same as "religious belief". I'm going to keep using the F-word!

Gassho
Lisa

[Ishin]

Hello all,

I don't have much wiser to say than some of the great posts already listed. It just occurs to me to share my own experience. The cultural religions I grew up with DO talk about faith in different light. Buddha advises us to experiment and see for OURSELVES if what he teaches is true. So if we define faith as trust; then yes, we do trust that at least what Buddha teaches makes sense enough to put it into practice. For me this has a great deal of spiritual integrity. Many of the more Judeo-Christian religions in the West that I have been exposed to, basically say faith is more belief in something that really cannot be proved. Maybe we will know when we die. But for now, have faith. Big difference in my opinion.

Gassho
C

[Morgan]

In the most pedantic sense, trust and faith are two very different concepts. One is born from experience, history, and understanding (that would be trust). The other from hope without proof (faith).

To put it in an even simpler way, my dogs have trust in me. Every day I feed them a treat at the same time, in the same place. They go to this place around 5 minutes before I do, and wait. This waiting is born of trust - in their direct experience, at X time, in Y place, I provide a delicious snack. If I were to adopt a new dog, and it were to join them in waiting on the first day, this would be faith at first (if we're sitting here, it must be good) because they're dogs - they cannot communicate the reason why they do this to the new one. Eventually it would be replaced by trust, as they found the practice to have merit.

What I appreciate about buddhism is that it asks for trust, as Clark has referenced from the Buddha's own teaching. YMMV when practicing, but Buddha asked for nothing more than that the listener first trust, then verify. That trust however is not trust in the Buddha - the trust is in the reasoning that brought the listener to the Buddha, because we can communicate the reasons why we do what we do, which most simply put are expressed as the four noble truths. If we haven't, with our own lives, experienced that life is suffering, than nothing else about buddhism makes sense - but we all accept this as true, ergo the rest can follow. No faith necessary, or even recommended IMO as it is diametrically opposed to practice.

Gassho,
Morgan

[Yugen]

I respect and admire the wisdom and thoughtfulness expressed in this thread. You are all helping my practice as I work out the relationship between faith and trust. I've had trouble with the word faith for a long time.

It's hard to wrestle with the concepts of faith and trust, particularly when so many of us (myself most of all!) are strongly rooted (family, culture) in the Christian tradition. The notion of faith (as an opposite to evidence-based reason, scientific discourse, or personal experience) is exemplified for me by C.S. Lewis' exhortation to engage in "willing suspension of disbelief." In Zen we are encouraged to do the opposite.... interpret the teachings through the lenses of our own experience... Zen has to walk the talk or we drop out pretty quickly..... it's important not to switch off our questioning mind. Doubt is a huge part of our practice (and it is for many Christians as well - think of Mother Theresa's writings and crisis of "faith...")

Language is important, and at the same time Zen encourages us to let go of the philosophical structures and dichotomies we have grown up with. Faith and trust are often posited in a dichotomous and contradictory relationship. If we "let go," it might be possible to see faith in another light. It is my opinion that faith and respect for one's own experience are not incompatible; indeed they are at the heart of our practice. Think for a moment of the sutra "Faith Mind" - to trust in the true nature of things is to have faith that things are indeed a certain way......

The Great Way is not difficult; It only avoids picking and choosing.
When love and hate are both absent,
Everything becomes clear and undisguised.
Make the smallest distinction, however,
And heaven and earth are set infinitely apart.
If you wish to see the truth,
Then hold no opinions for or against anything.
To set up what you like against what you dislike
Is a disease of the mind.
When the deep meaning of things is not understood,
The mind’s essential peace is disturbed to no avail.
The Way is perfect like vast space,
Where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess.
Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject
That we do not see the true nature of things.
Live neither in the entanglements of outer things
Nor in inner feelings of emptiness.
Be serene in the oneness of things
And such erroneous views will disappear by themselves.
To deny the reality of things
Is to miss their reality;
To assert the emptiness of things
Is to miss their reality.
The more you talk and think about it,
The further astray you wander from the truth.
Stop talking and thinking
And there is nothing that you will not be able to know.

If we have an understanding in the "reality of things" is that not trust in true nature or the oneness of the universe, or the Way? Is it faith, or trust?

We may decide not to use the word "faith" at all in our practice.... and use the word "trust." Each inidividual's practice and perspective is important, and the teachings are vehicles to be used as appropriate for each person... For me, understanding the word faith and challenging its cultural context is to unlock its beauty.

Just some thoughts..... and I stress this is my opinion only. I'm terrible at hermeneutics.

Deep bows,
Yugen

[Taigu]

ok, guys.

Faith and trust are very different.

trust arises out of the dual, the relative. You trust somebody, a principle something out there. in the action of trusting, you bridge two realities.

In faith, at least in our tradition, you allow Buddha to sit you, you allow the universe to fully express itself as you. it is being one with, merged with, beyond ideas, hopes and the likes.

please, don't think it is the same.

gassho


Taigu

[Mp]

ok, guys.

Faith and trust are very different.

trust arises out of the dual, the relative. You trust somebody, a principle something out there. in the action of trusting, you bridge two realities.

In faith, at least in our tradition, you allow Buddha to sit you, you allow the universe to fully express itself as you. it is being one with, merged with, beyond ideas, hopes and the likes.

please, don't think it is the same.

gassho


Taigu

Thank you Taigu. =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Yugen]

The F-bomb

Taigu, thank you.

Deep bows
Yugen

[Jika]

[Rich]

Thanks, Taigu. Understood.

Kind regards. /\

[Daiyo]

Thanks Taigu.

[Meishin]

Deep bows, gassho,
John

[Jundo]

Lovely, Taigu.

Perhaps best as neither "faith" nor "trust" nor "conviction" nor "belief", but just embodying and expressing Reality As It Is.

And you can trust us on that! (One has to, until one no longer needs to merely trust)

Gassho, J

[Rich]

Thanks Jundo. Understood.

Kind regards. /\

[Myosha]

Thanks to all.


Gassho,
Myosha