Some thoughts about Buddhist converts

[Meishin]

Hi all,

As a drop-out Presbyterian minister, I couldn't continue to profess belief in "outlandish" stories in the Old and New Testaments. But after studying koans for a while, I grok those stories. Who knows what would have happened if I'd come upon this 40 years ago? Yes, ridiculous question.

Gassho
John

[Joyo]

I was raised in the Christian Church. However, I don't think I really understood Christianity until I began practicing Buddhism. I used to have a lot of animosity toward the Church, but now I get it and have dropped my negativity. Soto Zen Buddhism is where I'm at home. Convert or whatever, I think it's just a matter of where my heart and mind is pointed.

Gassho, Entai

Can you tell me what made you get it? I still have a lot of negativity and animosity towards Christianity.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Jishin]

Can you tell me what made you get it? I still have a lot of negativity and animosity towards Christianity.

Gassho,
Joyo

I don't get it and that's okay. It takes too much energy to get it.

Gassho, Jishin

[Joyo]

I don't get it and that's okay. It takes too much energy to get it.

Gassho, Jishin

I so get that I would like to move past my anger and resentment, Christianity has taken away a lot of my life, especially as a child and young adult, and I'll be perfectly honest, it's left me very bitter towards this religion.

Gassho,
Joyo

[Daitetsu]

Hi Joyo,

I so get that I would like to move past my anger and resentment, Christianity has taken away a lot of my life, especially as a child and young adult, and I'll be perfectly honest, it's left me very bitter towards this religion.

Then be bitter! Accept your bitterness, and maybe one day you'll make peace with it.
However, you should not be bitter towards people of this religion (I don't say you are, I just wanted to add this in case).
Try to distinguish between a "thought system" and people that are stuck in it.
Why are some people actually stuck in it? Did they have much choice (considering their childhood, region, etc.)?
Perhaps they use their religion like a kind of crutch in their lives?
I think compassion and understanding are key elements here.


Having said this:
I have made so many bad experiences with Christianity in my entire life, so please don't think it has been easy for me.
Most times nowadays I treat proselytizing people like the Dude:

http://youtu.be/pWdd6_ZxX8c

Only when I witness really harmful opinions/actions I am willing to debate...

Hope you make peace with this religion someday - and if not, it's fine, too (as long as there is no harm done).

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[RichardH]

I was raised in an environment that was quite bitter about “religion”. There were the common modern grievences... superstition, mass control, make believe, no proof, hypocrisy. There was a cynicism that covered every base, and reduced all discussion to those terms. I made my own private investigation while being aware of all the Jeeezus preaching garbage, and corrupt institutions, and inquisitions, and holy water for sale...., but at the same time, there was something appealing to my own heart. I remember one silly little incident while watching a Woody Allen movie, where Max von Sydow played an old painter (he also played Jesus once). At one point he is talking about life in a tired way and grieving religiosity when he says something like “if Christ came back today and saw what was done in his name, he would throw up”. The audience in this big-city urban-secular theater erupted with an ovation. It was the strangest thing, and it pointed to something that many people I know feel, maybe quietly, that no matter what, Christ is an archetype of unconditional compassion. I also do not doubt that an itinerant rabbi went into the desert and gave up the ghost, forgave those who were killing him, and manifest unconditional compassion, why not.

Also... for people raised in traditional Asian societies, Buddhism can be just as full of shit as Christianity is for people here..

Cynicism is like armor over the heart. It is so smart, but it's a killer.

Gassho Daizan

[Kyotai]

This can be a difficult thing. I recently watched a documentary on a cult in the USA (by no means am I saying Christianity is a cult!) the young adults who opened there eyes and left were shunned by the community and vilified by even there own parents. This was done out of love because the parents or community knew they could not save the soul of the individual unless they returned to that belief system.

My parents (Catholics) would likely have great concern for me and family if they knew what my belief system has evolved into. To a far lesser extent then any cult, they would be concerned for my soul. This concern is out of love. I however would still be invited to Easter dinner and christmas mass, which I happily attend.

From your posts, it seems your situation has been far more difficult then mine. And understandably so, far more difficult to cultivate forgiveness or acceptance given the past and ongoing circumstances that I assume exist even still into adulthood.

I am no teacher, far from it, but as I understand it, Buddhism is not rigid, or exist in a bubble as some faiths seem to. This perhaps is why many young people leave faiths that require you to believe one thing or the other blindly because you were told to. In fact that is how I found myself here, although the word "convert" feels irrelevant here.

I don't think any wise words will help you out of your situation. Your own acceptance and practice might.

My shitty situation last year made me very angry, and still sometimes. What helped me was realizing through practice that the situation was over a year ago, and I am the one adding, commenting and letting my thoughts guide my emotion. There exists not one thing I can do to make it better, and that is very freeing.

Now, when I am on a nature walk with my wife and kids, and feel like something is missing, if it's sadness, I try and just feel that sadness. At the same time feeling the wind, my sons hand in mine and the ground beneath my feet.

I wish you well.

Gassho

Shawn

[Entai]

Joyo,
I never understood how Jesus dying was supposed to save me, etc. I try to view it now in terms of a Bodhisattva. How does one save all sentient beings? That's a question, not an answer.

Now, the way the church rose up around the ideas of love, compassion, service, etc. is something I will never get. But the message itself is important.

My animosity surrounded the institution and not the message, just as the zealotry and abuses have come out of the institution. Greed, anger and ignorance. My negativity is more useful when transformed into compassion. I have no idea if this helps.. or makes sense. But my views overall have softened and I can see where the intentions lie.

Gassho, Entai

[Hans]

Hello,

institutionalised religions manifest through people's actions. There may be different tendencies and doctrines, but all those who kill, lie and rape (or just get on your nerves and annoy you) share the same red life blood and are all our family.

Buddhism is a made up umbrella term that somehow manages to connect Stephen Batchelor on one end with Soka Gakkai on the other

There are good reasons why millions of Koreans have converted to Christianity, just as there can be good reasons to "convert" to one of the countless Dharmic approaches.

From my limited experience it is those individuals new to a religious current that go on the most about how great it is for reasons x,y and z. Reality always gets you in the end though, and once you have spent half a decade to really research and practise your newly adopted religion (most people just like to bask in the sun of their own enthusiastic projections though....), you will have discovered that one cannot find a magic bullet there either...and warts are everywhere.

So what do you do? WHAT do you do?

One of the reasons why Buddhism is seen as being so nice is because is has no structural power in western society. It "feels" like it is so free....because it is not a force to be reckoned with in western societies.

The Dalai Lama cannot even allow women to receive full Bhikshuni vows in his own school....that is how free Buddhism can be.....

Much more importantly:

What does your heart say when all the chips are down?

Whatever is true about you, embrace it, see it clearly...and spend your life expressing it in a worthy way.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Rich]

I love Christians, it's just that some of the things they say and do, I can't agree with.



Kind regards. /\

[Joyo]

Thank you everyone for your kind responses. I appreciate them all very much.

Hans, this is beautiful...

"What does your heart say when all the chips are down?

Whatever is true about you, embrace it, see it clearly...and spend your life expressing it in a worthy way."

I have found it difficult to hear my heart as their are chips, and walls. But, I know that what is true about me is not anger and bitterness, and perhaps that is a good place to start.

deep bows,
Joyo

[Byokan]

Whatever is true about you, embrace it, see it clearly...and spend your life expressing it in a worthy way.

Hans,

wow, that's beautiful, thank you for this

Gassho,
Lisa

edit: oh.haha, we are thinking alike, Joyo!

[Mp]

Whatever is true about you, embrace it, see it clearly...and spend your life expressing it in a worthy way.

I too agree Hans, this is a simply beautiful expression in itself. =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Tiwala]

Hello,

institutionalised religions manifest through people's actions. There may be different tendencies and doctrines, but all those who kill, lie and rape (or just get on your nerves and annoy you) share the same red life blood and are all our family.

Buddhism is a made up umbrella term that somehow manages to connect Stephen Batchelor on one end with Soka Gakkai on the other

There are good reasons why millions of Koreans have converted to Christianity, just as there can be good reasons to "convert" to one of the countless Dharmic approaches.

From my limited experience it is those individuals new to a religious current that go on the most about how great it is for reasons x,y and z. Reality always gets you in the end though, and once you have spent half a decade to really research and practise your newly adopted religion (most people just like to bask in the sun of their own enthusiastic projections though....), you will have discovered that one cannot find a magic bullet there either...and warts are everywhere.

So what do you do? WHAT do you do?

One of the reasons why Buddhism is seen as being so nice is because is has no structural power in western society. It "feels" like it is so free....because it is not a force to be reckoned with in western societies.

The Dalai Lama cannot even allow women to receive full Bhikshuni vows in his own school....that is how free Buddhism can be.....

Much more importantly:

What does your heart say when all the chips are down?

Whatever is true about you, embrace it, see it clearly...and spend your life expressing it in a worthy way.


Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

This is exactly how I feel. No matter where you go, you will always have a sense dissatisfaction, and to be able to welcome that in and live in it is what some people learn without too much religion. Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, etc, when you're really honest with yourself, are human beings recognizing their own fragility and their own imperfections and moving towards settling into it and getting on with their lives. Nothing much can change, actually, but at least you can face the world with less animosity. And maybe that can open the door to being a better person.

Personally, I don't understand how some Abrahamic religions are bent on converting other people. And I will not try to meddle with it. 'Cause no matter what you do, you really can't change someone else's mind. If they're ok with how they are, and religious beliefs aside, they're just normal human beings, then that much is enough to respect. I'm not letting beliefs and thoughts hinder me from actively engaging with someone else. Really, are you going to inquire about someone's religious beliefs or examine their theological understanding when you see them kneeling on the ground with both eyes blind? Do ideas and thoughts really have to have so much weight to stop you from responding to that situation?

What I like about the Philippines is that despite the religiosity, there are still so many people who know how hard life really is. And when you really settle into that, you realize how small some things really are. And really, we really are small. And that's what makes us so very big.

[Tb]

This is exactly how I feel. No matter where you go, you will always have a sense dissatisfaction, and to be able to welcome that in and live in it is what some people learn without too much religion. Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, etc, when you're really honest with yourself, are human beings recognizing their own fragility and their own imperfections and moving towards settling into it and getting on with their lives. Nothing much can change, actually, but at least you can face the world with less animosity. And maybe that can open the door to being a better person.

Hi.

Thank you.
Very good.
So, how do we go about doing that?

Mtfbwy
Fugen