IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM JUNDO

[Gregor]

Hi, Gregor.

My brain switches off when I consider too many opinions and try to worry about every raw nerve. Life's to short. I've got practice, life in general, Jukai, kids, a house move and much more to think about.

I'm sure it'll all work out fine. I don't see the guillotine being reintroduced or anything.

Regards,

Harry.

Cool Harry, I think we are in accord. No need to make a big thing out of it. I just wanted to offer my perspective in case you were looking for it.

take care,

Greg

[Shohei]

howdy!
been away on business, so to speak. I dont quite get whats up nor do i need to. Im good with what Jundo posted. Havent see the vid yet. It will have to wait until tomorrow.

Gassho
Dirk

[Stephanie]

I think this is quite reasonable. And I apologize if I have disturbed the wa here overmuch. Believe it or not, I do care about and respect tradition and the need for authority and deference to that authority to maintain harmony and structure. I respect Jundo, and wouldn't be here mouthing off if I didn't. It's my style to build respect for another person through challenging them, especially if they are in a position of authority. Maybe that seems perverse to some, but it is what it is.

I think anyone leading or participating in any sort of group, including an online group such as this, would likely benefit immensely from reading material on group process, such as Yalom's classic text, which I am currently reading for a class. A lot of stuff plays out in a group like this, and the person acting as group leader becomes the target for a lot of different emotions and behaviors, everything ranging from abject dependence and idealization to outright hostility. One of the key phases of group formation is one in which people explore issues around power and control, often manifesting this through hostility or challenges to the group leader.

I think one of the most significant things I've read about group process is that the roles that people in the group take on in the group context don't always come solely from them. We all perform a certain function in the group. If you kick out the rabble-rousers and annoying, belligerent people, you'll find that other folks will step up to fill those roles. I think it's more productive to explore these dynamics, and maybe even get hints of why they are manifesting, than it is to try to squash them.

I do not believe this place will ever feel like or operate like a "meatspace" zendo, but I don't think that's a bad thing. I believe that if we spend too much time trying to make this place into what it can't be, we'll miss out on what it actually is.

[Fuken]

I normally would stay out of this as I am not very good at expressing myself with the written word.

One thing that I wonder whether people understand is this: whenever one enters a zendo with a teacher that teacher is their teacher for the time that they reside within the temple. I have seen commentary from others whereby they state, "well, I'm here for sangha...I'm not looking for a teacher." I think that might be a thought that creates confusion because it dismisses Jundo and makes his position as teacher in the zendo somehow superfluous and makes him "just one of the gang" of posters. In my understanding this is very disrespectful and can possibly lead to some disruptive actions.

I could not agree more with this statement. Lynn I think you really hit the nail on the head.

As for you Harry, I find that sometimes I don't know how to take your posts, but I feel that you are here for a reason. I rather look forward to your posts especially, as I never know what to expect from you.

I guess what I am trying to say is that in the short time since I joined Treeleaf I have gotten to "Eavesdrop" on lots of very interesting threads and I have come to value the thoughts and feelings of several members here. Even though I do not post often, mostly since I am not very good at expressing myself in this medium. I would more than likely not express what I was trying to say the way I would mean to ( just ask the wife! Apparently my speech craft could really use some work as well :wink. I value all of the input from everyone (including the silent majority who choose not to participate in the discussions). I like it here... I like the diversity represented here... I agree with questioning a teaching to better grasp the message, as we all have different backgrounds and understandings. However I believe that if you openly criticize the teaching/teacher it is disrespectful. If a message does not agree with your views of how it should, I think one should question to make sure one really has an understanding of what was being said. I think there is a very broad line between questioning and criticism.

Now you know why I don't post more
Do no Harm,
_/l_
Damian

Damian,
I thought you expressed yourself quite well.
I look forward to reading more from you!

Gassho,
Jordan

[Gregor]

Damien,

Ditto what Jordan said.

Don't be afraid to share your thoughts. You were very clear and insightful.

[TracyF]

Hi Rika. Thanks for your perspective. Too bad Jundo had to spell out what should be common sense. Even though we socialize and goof around once in a while, it was clear to me from the beginning that the main purpose of this forum is to facilitate zen practice. Of course adding on the fact that it is Jundo's zendo forum should make it even more clear that Jundo is the teacher. Teachers can't teach if the students look for any little reason to interrupt them and undermine their class. There's a balance between open and fruitful discussion and unproductive chaos. Jundo is trying to find the balance. Let's help that process instead of disrupt it.

I came here to learn more about zen. I haven't committed to a local group yet. Consequently, this place is the only place where I've been getting information other than reading on my own. Harry, I like you and I think you're funny. However, if you don't mind, I'd like to come in here and see honest discussions on zen or topics related to it. The more effort Jundo and other forum members expend addressing your issues, the less time is spent on zen-related things (or nice things like artwork, music, etc.). That's not fair to newbies like me who are serious about learning.

[Eika]

I agree; nice post, Damian and Tracy.



Bill

[Gregor]

I think somebody let my demon off his chain.


I'm going to go and eat my fish.


Goodnight

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

I think it is a good time to offer a couple of things. Pardon me, but I am a little ill today (and I still need to do the sitting yet! Yes, it is hard somedays! )

Yes, I think teachers should be treated with common sense respect, be they high school teachers or Zazen teachers in a Sangha. And I respect the lovely essay on Japanese customs that RIka san wrote. I do not need to be treated with all the formaility of the Japanese ... but this is a classroom, a library, a laboratory, and people are trying to learn and gain (un)knowledge. Be polite, whisper and listen. Zen teaching requires a degree of deference to the role of the teacher and willingness to follow his/her advice ... just as learning geometry in the 9th grade requires sitting quietly in class, paying attention, speaking in turn and respectfully, and not talking back to the teacher.

Please respect the teacher, not because he is Jundo (in fact, depite it), but because he/she is the teacher. It is a two way street, and the teacher must work constantly to earn that respect too. I am happy to have folks doubt or disagree with anything I say, and even debate it publicly, and that's fine. That is welcome.

But, I am sorry, the best means of discussion and questioning is civil and kind, and not (as was written) a "mouthing off", belligerent rabble-rousing, attack ... it is just not good to have a snarky atmosphere in a Sangha. In fact, we need conduct quite the opposite.

Sorry, in my geometry classroom, I will not tolerate spitballs, passing notes, bubble gum, cell phones, talking back to the teacher or disturbing other students. One must be deferential in order to learn some geometry.

Gassho, Jundo

PS- My teacher, Nishijima, tolerates no belligerence in speaking to him. But his way is to not repond with belligerence in return. It is amazing really: I have seen him yelled at and called racial epithets, and he just keeps smiling and freely discloses all the situation. I sometimes think he is too Lassez Faire in fact.

PPS- This place is only "not a real Sangha" or not a "meatspace" Sangha if you choose to see it that way. In fact, I think that we have better --daily-- communication here than at many weekly or twice weekly Sangha I have attended. Yes, I cannot give a hug, and I can only see you if we do Sanzen by camera. Still, I think we are doing better in many ways. Heck, can you name a "bricks and mortar" Sangha (or any group, office or family) that is not facing many of the same intrapersonal relations issues we do.

People don't communicate perfectly just because they are in the same room, and misunderstanding is rife there as well.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jun]

Hello, Rika.

Nice to meet you & and thank you for your insights.

Most of us here are not Japanese and were not brought up with/ are not familiar with, and do not hold traditional Japanese values.

I'd be interested to hear on what you though of the idea of developing a Zen Buddhism based in, or accepting of at least, Western cultural values?

It strikes me that the core values you mention (respect for older people and teachers) are present in the West also. Don't you feel that you can criticize a teacher while still respecting him or her?

Best Regards,

Harry.

Hello it is Rika again. Nice to meet you. I understand that people practicing Zen are not living in Japan or aware of Japanese values. I want to say that it is culture that shapes religion not the other way. Zen was shaped by Chinese culture and Japanese culture so the culture of China and Japan is found deeply in Zen. Respect for your teachers and their teaching is very important. We must question the teaching of Buddha as Buddha told us and to see if it really is what he said. But questioning the teaching of Buddha is not the same as showing disrespect for a teacher or what he teaches. We can ask questions to learn and we can maybe make up our own mind which may be different from the mind of our teacher, but our teacher is responsible for helping us to make up our mind so we must show respect and thanks. We owe a big debt to our teacher for helping us to learn and form our own ideas about the teaching.

Many years ago I think western values were similar in respect to Japanese values, but that has changed a lot. I do not see respect for teachers and old people in western culture. In Buddhist practice we learn to be compassionate and understanding of others. We learn to accept other people's ways and values and to mould our life into a good respectful life of love and generosity. I believe these values are today lost in western culture. I don't think western religion truly teaches these values. Zen can adopt any cultural values as long as they are equal to the teachings of Buddha. Compassion and understanding, respect and honour are found in even the oldest Buddhist teachings.
Thank you.

[Keishin]

Hellos to all posting here.
I haven't had much to say, as I consider myself to be primarily a guest here, and not a full member. By that I mean that I do not watch the daily sit-a-longs with any regularity (it's been about 4-5 months now since I saw one).
With less time to read and less time to think about and comment on topics, mine is not a strong level of participation at this time.
From my perspective, all of it is wonderful: everyone's remarks, everyone's comments--all of it--the parts I like and the parts I don't like. I enjoy all the personalities here--the ones I 'mesh' with and the ones not so much.
Diversity is very healthy. In my view, becoming friends with all aspects of self is learned by finding ways to be on friendly terms with all one encounters.
And ditto the reverse of that--learning to be on friendly terms with others is a way to learn how to befriend all aspects of self. Outside and inside no difference.

There is a wonderful 'homework' assignment for students of Korean Zen Master Seung Sahn Sa Nim's:

Somebody comes into the Zen Center with a lighted cigarette, walks up to the Buddha statue, blows smoke in its face and drops ashes on its lap. You are standing there. What can you do?
This person has understood that nothing is holy or unholy. All things in the universe are one, and that one is himself. So everything is permitted. Ashes are Buddha, Buddha is ashes. The cigarette flicks. The ashes drop.
But his understanding is only partial. He has not yet understood that all things are just as they are. Holy is holy, unholy is unholy. Ashes are ashes, Buddha is Buddha. He is very attached to emptiness and to his own understanding and he thinks that all worlds are useless. So whatever you say to him, however you try to teach him, he will hit you. If you try to teach by hitting him back, he will hit you even harder. (He is very strong).
How can you cure his delusions?
Since you are a Zen student, you are also a Zen teacher. You are walking on the path of the Bodhisattva, whose vow is to save all beings from their suffering. This person is suffering from a mistaken view. You must help him understand the truth: that all things in the universe are just as they are.
How can you do this?
If you find the answer to this problem, you will find the true way.


With regard to Treeleaf Sangha:
How can we do this? We are doing it!
Guests and full members alike.
Those who will never post, those who will always post.
Those whose posts are toast.
Those who have yet to post.

I'll be too busy to visit for the next couple of days.
Everyone take care.

[Ankai]

No one is suggesting that any teacher be above criticism. But neither should ongoing debate and criticism be permitted to go on and on in public. wouldn't be permitted in ANY Sangha, and certainly wouldn't be permitted inside a Zendo. Those would be private conversations between student (or students) and teacher, and not allowed to disrupt day to day activity in the rest of the Sangha. Such things are inappropriate, for both student to engage in AND teacher to permit.

[Ankai]

Fair enough. FINALLY an accord.
We'll agree to drop the whole thing and quit posting about it. Excellent idea, Harry. I agree fully.
Peace.

[Jundo]

I broadly agree with your statement about respect and gratitude for the teacher. But I do not believe that the teacher should be beyond criticism.

Hi Harry,

If I may try to respond before Rika san (Jun, you are obviously a very lucky man), a teacher should never be beyond criticism. That would be a highly dangerous situation, first step to abuse and cult-ism.

Even in Japan, there are many checks, direct and indirect, on teachers in need of criticism. People will often make their opinions known to the teacher, although in language polite by western standards. The students will withhold true respect for the teacher (beyond the formalities), and the teacher's reputation will suffer. Students will vote with their feet and with their overall attitude.

Yet in really abusive situations in a traditional setting, sometimes the students can do nothing, and have no place to turn. The bad situation will just be covered up or ignored. That is terrible. Thus, as I have written about before, I think that any Sangha must have various checks and balances on authority, just like any body or institution that is going to stay on a good course. For example, in Treeleaf's case, I am sure any problem will become public very fast given the miracle of e-mail, and people will stop coming to sit here. Hard to keep a secret around here!

However, the general tone of this place (as with any school, library, laboratory, temple or church) should, hopefully, remain respectful, peaceful and polite ... teacher to student, student to teacher, student to student... human being to human being. We all learn from and support each other. Criticism and honesty are always welcome and necessary, but so are soft manners, respect for 'decorum' and gentle speech.

Note that, in all those old stories of tough, cursing, "icon" smashing masters, rarely was any disturbance allowed to the atmosphere beyond a passing moment.

Gassho, Jundo

[Dainin]

Hi Folks,

I haven't posted in awhile, nor have I read any postings until yesterday. On the one hand I felt that I wasn't really contributing to this sangha - just spouting off my opinions on things I really don't know much about. On the other hand I found that I was reading the postings as a guilty pleasure (especially the whole Brad Warner thing) - just reading for entertainment. I admit I still feel like this. But, this thread has reminded me of why I chose to be part of Treeleaf in the first place.

As a whole I like this sangha. I like the teacher. I like the practice. So, while I may not post a great deal - usually I feel I have nothing to add to the discussion (as I feel in this instance), I appreciate others' words, ideas, support, and suggestions. Let's keep doing this thing.

Bow (and I mean it),
Keith