IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM JUNDO

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40354

    IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM JUNDO

    Hi,

    I have posted an important message with today's sitting, and I hope everyone will have a look.

    http://treeleafzen.blogspot.com/2008/02 ... blood.html

    I have not yet reached any decisions, but I will within a few days. For me, one particular message touched me (I said it was by Keishin on the video, but it was from Lynn):

    So, most of us seem to be on a similar flow about guest behaviour based on societal standards: we don't walk into someone's home, throw ourself on the couch, but our shoe-shod feet on the coffee table, demand that our host start making us dinner simply because we've "suited up and shown up", speak snidely, sarcastically and angrily at the other guests, then proceed to berate our host for being intolerant etc. because they want us to please remove our feet from the table, take our shoes off at the door, speak respectfully to others and stop demanding their services as if those services were a requirement to keep *us in the house.

    In the "real time" world, how would that play? Why should it look different in a virtual home and, most importantly, in a virtual zendo? (I will give slack for the fact that *some people may not have been in a real time zendo and are unfamiliar with etiquette and protocol.)

    It might be time for Jundo to be a bit more specific regarding guest behaviours because this is his home and our shared zendo. One can use skillfull means to be clear and still be welcoming.
    We are not an internet Sangha, an internet Forum or a social club. We are a Sangha. If any of you visited a temple. monastery, Zazenkai or Zen Center anywhere from Japan to London to New York, you would be expected to behave in a certain manner. You would be gentle, respectful, soft, open and cooperative with others, respectful and deferential to the teacher. I will keep the same standards here as if people were visiting my temple or Zen Center made of wood and bricks in Tsukuba, Japan. That is just the way it will be.

    The reason is not to massage my ego, or because I am a dictator, or because I want everyone to kiss my ring and take every bit of mumbling out of my mouth as the word of God. The reason is only that this is a place of learning, mutual support and peace ... and a certain environment conducive to that must be kept.

    So, whatever decisions I make, it will not please everyone. However, anyone who has been around this place the past year knows what kind of an open and warm atmosphere we have been able to maintain. There are really only two rules: In this Sangha, we Practice Shikantaza. And, we shall be kind to each other in doing so.

    That means that we shall talk to each other softly, sweetly, gently and in a cooperative and supportive tone without harsh speech or a sharp tongue. If people find it false or say that it "is not their style" or that they disagree, I am sorry. You are free to say anything here, criticize any idea, or raise any question, but you must do so in a respectful, open, positive and non-aggressive manner. The tone does count and I must be the judge.

    For better of worse, I am the teacher here and that requires me to assume a certain role. When the teacher talks, people are expected to listen respectfully. They can doubt anything the teacher says or disagree, they can think his opinions wrong, but they are expected to do so respectfully. Finally, if they are in this place, they are expected to make some effort to comply with the Practices as taught here. A certain Practice is taught here, and that is the reason for the place (again, it is not a social club or a bar).

    There is no Sangha in the world with a written and video record more public than ours. There is no cult activity going on here, there is no abusive situation. There is only a group of people who must maintain a certain society in order to study and Practice. The record clearly shows that the only thing that trips my trigger is folks failing to act in this place with the proper respect for the place, the teacher and fellow practitioners. I am sorry if I am coming across as speaking sharply while telling others not to speak sharply, but it is the teacher's duty and prerogative to tell the class to hush, listen and learn a certain way.

    This is a place of learning. It is our house, it is my house. My standard will be the decorum that would be expected at any bricks and mortar temple, monastery or Zen Center in Asia or in the West.

    Gassho, Jundo
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Jun
    Member
    • Jun 2007
    • 236

    #2
    I would have thought that the expected behaviour Jundo is addressing would be obvious.

    Jundo, I believe this should be a sticky or at least set out at the "entrance" somewhere.
    Gassho
    Jun
    The life and teachings of Suzuki Shõsan Rõshi - http://kongoshin.blogspot.com/

    Comment

    • Longdog
      Member
      • Nov 2007
      • 448

      #3
      Well said. I whole heartedly agree
      [url:x8wstd0h]http://moder-dye.blogspot.com/[/url:x8wstd0h]

      Comment

      • Eika
        Member
        • Sep 2007
        • 806

        #4
        Thanks, Jundo, for stating this explicitly. The internet brings out the best and the worst of people . . . I hope we can cultivate the best and accept but minimize the worst.

        Bill
        [size=150:m8cet5u6]??[/size:m8cet5u6] We are involved in a life that passes understanding and our highest business is our daily life---John Cage

        Comment

        • lindabeekeeper
          Member
          • Jan 2008
          • 162

          #5
          Thanks, Jundo.

          I'm on board.

          Linda

          Comment

          • Ankai
            Treeleaf Unsui
            • Nov 2007
            • 996

            #6
            Bravo, Jundo. thanks.
            Gassho!
            護道 安海


            -Godo Ankai

            I'm still just starting to learn. I'm not a teacher. Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I already take myself too seriously!

            Comment

            • Ankai
              Treeleaf Unsui
              • Nov 2007
              • 996

              #7
              I will, of course, respect your decisions on this. But haven't we received many mixed messages about just what this place is?

              Have they been mixed messages, or has it been more a matter of people latching onto any percieved disparity in order to justify their own behavior? I think most posters here get the general idea and handle conversations just fine without needing boundaries spelled out for them.
              Gassho!
              護道 安海


              -Godo Ankai

              I'm still just starting to learn. I'm not a teacher. Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I already take myself too seriously!

              Comment

              • Undo
                Member
                • Jun 2007
                • 495

                #8
                But haven't we received many mixed messages about just what this place is?
                I've always seen it as tree leaf sangha.

                Who was it that said "as things are viewed, so they appear to be?"

                Comment

                • Jun
                  Member
                  • Jun 2007
                  • 236

                  #9
                  My wife, would like to say something so I hope Jundõ and fellow Leafers won't mind.

                  Hello I am Rika. I want to say something from Japanese perspective about Zen.

                  Proper manners and etiquette are extremely important to Japanese tradition, and although Jundosan is introducing this online sangha as modern democratic and western Zen, I believe as the root of tradition is Sõtõ Zen the Japanese idea of 'rei' is still the heart. 'Rei' is Confucian ideal of correct behaviour and correct manners towards elders and teachers. In Zen there is expected traditional pattern of conduct and a correct mode of behaviour to follow. This is followed by both the teacher as example and by students as respect for teachings. It is very important to show respect and for a student to know her place.

                  When a teacher teaches he teaches out of love for his student. A student is in the teacher debt for having been taught something and we call this in Japanese 'on'. 'On' must be repaid with respect and loyalty this is called 'giri'. Students have an obligation [giri] to help each other to understand the teachings of the teacher, to repay the debt [on]. This is traditional Japanese thinking and is not different in Zen sangha. In Japan a student who does not show respect or show manners will be quickly left out of classes and instruction. They will find themselve not advancing or learning anything new and they will leave soon thinking that they are not liked or the teacher is not fair. A teacher usually will not say anything but slowly will ignore that student. But when a student show manner and respect to the teacher the teacher is more open and will show more lessons and give deeper instruction.

                  If this is a zendo or not is not important. It is just the same if Jundosan is writing to his students in letters. Jundosan is providing his teachings here to his students who should show respect and manners for his teachings. If it is necessary to make a question it should be polite and with manners if you want to learn. When a teacher gives harsh critiscism it is to make the student think about it not to upset the student. A student who gets upset with a teachers critiscism needs to practice more.
                  Thank you
                  Gassho
                  Jun
                  The life and teachings of Suzuki Shõsan Rõshi - http://kongoshin.blogspot.com/

                  Comment

                  • Ankai
                    Treeleaf Unsui
                    • Nov 2007
                    • 996

                    #10
                    There's no door holding anyone here. Discuss the teacher's teachings? Absolutely. Publicly debate him after one or two questions? Inappropriate in ANY Sangha. Even so here. that's what PM is for. And we ARE all here voluntarily. There are other Sangas.
                    Gassho!
                    護道 安海


                    -Godo Ankai

                    I'm still just starting to learn. I'm not a teacher. Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I already take myself too seriously!

                    Comment

                    • Ankai
                      Treeleaf Unsui
                      • Nov 2007
                      • 996

                      #11
                      There's no door holding anyone here. Discuss the teacher's teachings? Absolutely. Publicly debate him after one or two questions? Inappropriate in ANY Sangha. Even so here. that's what PM is for. And we ARE all here voluntarily. There are other Sanghas.
                      Gassho!
                      護道 安海


                      -Godo Ankai

                      I'm still just starting to learn. I'm not a teacher. Please don't take anything I say too seriously. I already take myself too seriously!

                      Comment

                      • Jun
                        Member
                        • Jun 2007
                        • 236

                        #12
                        Hi Harry,

                        Rika has gone to bed, perhaps she will answer you tomorrow.
                        Gassho
                        Jun
                        The life and teachings of Suzuki Shõsan Rõshi - http://kongoshin.blogspot.com/

                        Comment

                        • Lynn
                          Member
                          • Oct 2007
                          • 180

                          #13
                          Thank you, Jundo. This is very clear. You are offering a Western format with some leeway in the sharing of ideas, but you are conducting it within the boundaries of traditional Japanese etiquette and protocol for a zendo.

                          Harry, he can't be clearer than that. If this is not your idea of a Western Buddhist practice this may not be the right vessel for your particular needs. Playing out the "show me the money" card looking for specifics is really just stalling. Either you wish to be here or you don't. If you do, then Jundo has, as of today, made it clear what needs to be done. So, forget the past and consider today a clean slate and be honest about whether or not you wish to remain and continue sharing under these guidelines. He's not asking you to leave for any past actions, just asking whether or not you want to stay now that there is some clarity in guidelines for interaction.

                          And Rika's commentary is absolutely beautiful and eloquently stated.

                          One thing that I wonder whether people understand is this: whenever one enters a zendo with a teacher that teacher is their teacher for the time that they reside within the temple. I have seen commentary from others whereby they state, "well, I'm here for sangha...I'm not looking for a teacher." I think that might be a thought that creates confusion because it dismisses Jundo and makes his position as teacher in the zendo somehow superfluous and makes him "just one of the gang" of posters. In my understanding this is very disrespectful and can possibly lead to some disruptive actions.

                          I do not wish to work with a teacher, one on one as a formal student, but when I am on Treeleaf, I respect Jundo as my teacher for the time I wish to be here, without question. That doesn't mean I am his "yes man" but I respect him in that capacity and will act accordingly. This is my own personal expression of Beginners Mind. And I am in his zendo. I will remove my shoes.

                          As ever...just my NSHO. YMMV. :?

                          With bows,

                          Lynn
                          When we wish to teach and enlighten all things by ourselves, we are deluded; when all things teach and enlighten us, we are enlightened. ~Dogen "Genjo Koan"

                          Comment

                          • Gregor
                            Member
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 638

                            #14
                            Rika,

                            Thank you for what you had to say. Nothing about it seemed foreign to this American boy. Jun is very lucky to have such a wise wife


                            Lynn,

                            You really inspire me with the perspective you bring to this situation. I really appreciate your level headinesses and the clarity of your communication on this issue. I think we can all look to your words to help guide us through this.

                            Harry,

                            I like you, I respect you. I'm glad that you want to stay and work things out. I hope you do.

                            I'm not sure if I feel comfortable picking out exact quotations and drumming up more argument. Especially in public. I think I've raked up enough muck.

                            I'm sure Jundo will discuss the situation personally with those of us he needs to. However, if you go back and read the thread reflecting on the different perspective that many of us hold, you might understand it a little better. If not, then speak to the people who were involved individually. If you have a specific question for me I'd be more than happy to respond.


                            Everyone take care,

                            Greg
                            Jukai '09 Dharma Name: Shinko 慎重(Prudent Calm)

                            Comment

                            • Damian
                              Member
                              • Jan 2008
                              • 84

                              #15
                              I normally would stay out of this as I am not very good at expressing myself with the written word.


                              One thing that I wonder whether people understand is this: whenever one enters a zendo with a teacher that teacher is their teacher for the time that they reside within the temple. I have seen commentary from others whereby they state, "well, I'm here for sangha...I'm not looking for a teacher." I think that might be a thought that creates confusion because it dismisses Jundo and makes his position as teacher in the zendo somehow superfluous and makes him "just one of the gang" of posters. In my understanding this is very disrespectful and can possibly lead to some disruptive actions.

                              I could not agree more with this statement. Lynn I think you really hit the nail on the head.

                              As for you Harry, I find that sometimes I don't know how to take your posts, but I feel that you are here for a reason. I rather look forward to your posts especially, as I never know what to expect from you.

                              I guess what I am trying to say is that in the short time since I joined Treeleaf I have gotten to "Eavesdrop" on lots of very interesting threads and I have come to value the thoughts and feelings of several members here. Even though I do not post often, mostly since I am not very good at expressing myself in this medium. I would more than likely not express what I was trying to say the way I would mean to ( just ask the wife! Apparently my speech craft could really use some work as well :wink. I value all of the input from everyone (including the silent majority who choose not to participate in the discussions). I like it here... I like the diversity represented here... I agree with questioning a teaching to better grasp the message, as we all have different backgrounds and understandings. However I believe that if you openly criticize the teaching/teacher it is disrespectful. If a message does not agree with your views of how it should, I think one should question to make sure one really has an understanding of what was being said. I think there is a very broad line between questioning and criticism.

                              Now you know why I don't post more
                              Do no Harm,
                              _/l_
                              Damian

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