A Nietzsche quote about thinking and ego

[Jinyo]

I read all the existentialists in college and was fascinated; then I read Viktor Frankl's 'Man's Search For Meaning'. That kind of settled everything for me. I'm with The Third School......

Gassho,

Lee

Thanks Lee,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fD1512_XJEw

the wonderful Viktor Frankl in full flow

Gassho

Willow

[Neo]

What do you mean with I'm with the third School? I've read that book as well with Victor Frankl. I think it's very Nietzscheish! "The one that has a why to live, can bare with almost any how" - Like Nietzsches view on suffering, it has to do with growth, you will encounter suffering when striving for your goals, or becoming who you are, it's healthy. What doesn't kill you will only make you stronger.

I'm sure it's that way nameless. Somehow I'm clearing up time for reading and thinking, but not for sitting. It's the sad truth. My ego always finds some excuse to hold of the sitting for another time, I need some more food for my mind first.

[Daitetsu]

Hi Neo,

Perhaps you have to go through that "philosophy period" first. The more you read of that stuff, the more your head will start to spin and one day you will remember to sit zazen.
And find out that all the time nothing has been missing...

I'd recommend a "sane mix" though. There is a time to read and a time to sit.
If you can spare 15 mins per day for sitting that's better than nothing! And everyone can spare 15 mins - either by going to bed 15 mins later or by getting up 15 mins. earlier.

"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. "
- F. Nietzsche

Gassho,

Daitetsu

[Hans]

Hello,

@willow

Thank you so much for this delightful link. There are so many mediocre lecturers and speakers in the world, that it is a joy to see someone at the top of his/her game!

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Neo]

So you think it's impossible to combine these two 'schools'? I mean, it just feels so nihilistic, nothing to do, nowhere to go. It's not working in this society. Isn't it more fun to do something, create something, strive for goals, to make this world a better place? To develop, learn new skills, to grow. Even though you know the buddha rules of dukkha, impermanence, and nirvana? Not getting money for money, but rather as a side effect from beeing good at something?

I hope it's just a misunderstanding, that you can strive to grow, learn new things, enjoy life, even though you accept and practice the fundamental rules of Buddhism (da reality). I'm much less experienced compared to most of you here, and I'm somewhat young to I guess. But I just feel like it's wrong to just accept something without understanding it in my heart. That's why I'm fighting against. That's why existentialism feels more exciting than Zen at times.

Like in the peaceful warrior. I think Dan Millman is inspired from existential thinkers like Kirkegaard for example. And he makes it to work with the eastern philosophies. To me it feels like a perfect middle way. Not striving for glory or beeing happy at the end, rather enjoying the ride, doing something with your life and hopefully something that benefit others. Maybe Zen/buddhism is this way allready and I've got it wrong!

Don't get me wrong, I'm all in about buddhism/zen. I've figured that's the best view on reality I've come across so far. I'm just talking out of the air here, talking at random. Don't take everything I'm saying strict. Just trying to express my feelings.

[Mp]

But I just feel like it's wrong to just accept something without understanding it in my heart.

Thank you for your insight Neo, but I wonder, does the intellectual process of understanding come from the heart, or the mind? Sometimes for me I know something is right because I feel it in my heart and my mind has nothing to do with it. And other times what I feel in my heart is not truth, but the reflection of what my mind thinks it is or should be.

Sometimes it is important to intellectually understand the workings of things and times when to just sit with whatever it is ... accepting it in the heart and the mind. =)

Gassho
Shingen

[Nameless]

Hey Neo. I can relate. I was once in an eerily similar state of mind. Studied philosophy and theology for years trying to expand my mind, answer my questions and come to a view that felt right and... complete. After awhile I started to pick out views I agreed with from all these schools of thought. Started living by my own philosophy. To my amazement, the thing I created was very very similar to Zen Buddhism. When I read the first book on Zen I was blown away. So, I found it very easy to slip right into it because I was kind of practicing before knowing I was practicing haha.

My ego, fed on speculation and intellectualism for almost three decades, has rebelled against zazen at times as well. I find it's beneficial to show myself kindness at such times. Visualize a mother consoling her infant. "It's okay sweetie, you're all right. We're just gonna sit now, okay?" I take a few deep breaths, and envelop myself completely in mindfulness when preparing to sit. Then, the ego settles and submits. Like a child afraid of the dark who's been lulled into sleep. If you're interested, this upcoming column written for the local paper might be useful.

In regards to striving, learning, growing and all that I can only suggest the view of being the moment. If we drop all thoughts of, "Doing this for that reason," "I hate this I wish it was done, " "I love this, I wish it would never end," and just focus on the sweeping when we sweep then it's possible to truly be immersed in the motion of sweeping, united with it. Then, the floor being swept and clean is just a fortunate byproduct. This is anything but stagnant, this is the way of unadulterated equanimity, emotional beauty and satisfaction. The grass doesn't think of growing, it just grows. With this there is unconditional appreciation, which is the essence of enjoyment. That's my take on it at least.

Gassho, John

[Neo]

Thank you nameless for you answers and your effort to help me out, it seems like you have a lot of experience and to be honest, it's odd to me that not many people have experience in searching for meaning, truth, answers... for me it's like, what can be more important to get some meaning. Without it, what the point in doing anything?

My real problem kinda is that I've got a low self-esteem, all the way from my childhood. I guess I should not, I'm pretty smart, good looks etc. And this is what brought me to philosophy at the first place, my suffering in this world, my search for answers. It's hard not believing in your self. So I started reading to fix my broken ego, to create something of my self. A guy in my place in the western world really want's success, to be liked. Then I encountered Buddhism...

It feels like I'm stuck between fixing the broken ego and become someone (existentialism, success literature, self-help) or to just abandon my ego totally (Zen, Buddhism, fight-clubish, spirituality). And I'm stuck between these camps, somehow I cant just drop the feeling of not trying to get girls, becoming good at sport, building muscles at the gym. It's like everything I thought mattered in my whole childhood and early adult life was just an illusion, but it's a powerful one, so powerful. My ego needs it's food to keep me floating at all, and all thoughts about letting all this attention-seeking go (I know it's the wrong way to go), I don't know what's left to live for... it's really hard when you know in the end that it's the wrong way to go, but feelings are powerful. I've been stuck like this for many years now... and I don't know if it's building or destroying the ego that I need to do.

Again I'm getting far to personal here, sorry about this. At I've tried to explain why I have a hard time just giving all in on Buddhism and meditation. Then I'll have to leave every bad medicine (drugs, girls, games) that keeps me floating today behind, and that's really scary and it will for real get my ignored depression up to the surface.

[Neo]

Shiningen, I don't know really, If you read my last post I'm trying to explain why I have a hard time giving in to Buddhism and let all desires and dreams of a broken ego go. Even though I guess that's what I need to do, break down totally to start with!

[Nameless]

I know how you feel Neo. I also had low self-esteem since childhood. Was always the outsider. Sucked in grade school, but kids respected it in high school, though by then the wounds ran deep. Like you, I knew it was unreasonable to be so hard on myself, to magnify every "flaw," but reason does little to alleviate such suffering and loneliness. The first step out of my own suffering was realizing I chose to feel sad, chose to view myself negatively. Focus determines reality, I was focusing on unnecessary things.

The ego is truly tricky business. By actively trying to annihilate it we are actually building it up further. In my experience, it isn't destroyed, but becomes kind of transparent, letting Buddha-nature shine through. Letting the ego go involves realizing intuitively that it was never really there to begin with. Everything I identify with is constantly in flux from moment to moment. I feel different, the cognitive themes are different, everything is different every time I get out of bed... so right now there's really not this thing we call ego at all, experiencing that firsthand we let it go.

Zen is far from all fun and games haha. It is a "direct pointing to the mind of man." We must turn and face ourselves. More than once I've encountered hard truths about my "self" on this path but I can't push them and can't dwell on them. They simply rise up, and depart leaving only peace in their wake. When sorrow does rise up, we can't feel, "This is my sorrow," only, "there is sorrow." Like watching a leaf on the breeze it just keeps on blowing if we don't grasp it, hovering in our view for just a few moments. That analogy works because all things follow the same laws as that blowing leaf, it's no exclusive to the leaf itself. By simple awareness truth becomes apparent.

And as far as drugs, girls and games go... something new I'm encountering lately is an unconscious and gentle un-attachment. To each attachment I'm randomly going, "What? Why?" In that order haha. Like waking up from a dream to find I've been sleep walking. Getting stoned left first. I didn't push it away, it just left on it's own accord (and I used to rely on pot for my happiness). Then getting drunk (used to rely on it to have fun). Now overeating (satisfaction). I can tell you first hand, letting these things go naturally isn't depressing at all, quite the contrary actually. But I feel it has to be done naturally, not forcefully. Now I can feel happy, satisfied and have fun for no reason at all. Hope this helped buddy! I could go on indefinitely, but I've already written too much.

Gassho, John

(P.S. Zazen. Hahaha)

[Jundo]

Shiningen, I don't know really, If you read my last post I'm trying to explain why I have a hard time giving in to Buddhism and let all desires and dreams of a broken ego go. Even though I guess that's what I need to do, break down totally to start with!

Well, Neo, I do not know if you need to "break down totally". A "long, dark night of the soul" is sometimes an important part of this Practice (I came to Buddhist practice after a decade or more of depression and confusion in my teens into my mid twenties). But probably no need for a break down if it can be avoided.

However, one certainly does have to get past a lot of self-imposed "junk in the mental trunk" that we tend to carry around in our heads. You write ...

My real problem kinda is that I've got a low self-esteem

Well, WHO is judging? WHO is judging WHOM in a world of deep interconnection? Where is this "high and low" in a world where every grain of sand is sacred in its way? WHO needs "self-esteem"? (Here is a clue: the self needs self esteem).

So I started reading to fix my broken ego, to create something of my self

Where is this "ego", this self ... and WHO is judging that it is in need of fixing? (Here is a clue: It is the self that judges the self in need of fixing). Let this self go!

Bodhidharma said, "Bring me this heart, this 'self', in need of fixing" ...

In Shikantaza, dropping all judgments of fixed or broken,fulfilled or lacking ... sitting right in and as the Unbroken Moment ... we temporarily put the little critic, the self, out of a job.

Then, rising from the cushion, we do not try to "abandon the ego totally", but befriend our self ... realizing, like the parent of a small child, that it will sometimes get into all kinds of trouble and fooling around, because that is what children do.

DO NOT TRY TO GET TOTALLY BEYOND THE SELF (at least, except for those passing Kensho momentless moments now and then). You cannot live without a self, you would not be a human being. In our Soto Way, one can be free of the self and not a prisoner of the self ... even as one is all bound up as the self, all at once!

Then I'll have to leave every bad medicine (drugs, girls, games) ...

Well, maybe leave the drugs ... but okay to keep the girls and games (in moderation and balance, of course!)

Even this search for meaning is a funny one: If oneself tells oneself that this world is meaningless ... it is.

If oneself finds that oneself, and every grain of sand, is filled with meaning and sacredness ... it is.

Kind of like ice cream! If one says that it is just a conglomeration of molecules, some cow secretions and sweet stuff that will just make one fat and which one could run to in excess as an excuse to bury one's pain in the drug of "Ben & Jerry" ... well, you are not wrong. On the other hand ... DELICIOUS! JUST TASTE IT ON ONE'S TONGUE THIS MOMENT! EVEN THE FLAVORS NOT OUR FAVORITE ... DELICIOUS! WHO DOESN'T LIKE ICE CREAM (in moderation and balance, of course!)

Gassho, J

[Tiwala]

Here's a word of advice, if you really want to 'understand zen'. Just sit.

Stop thinking in terms of either - or (fixing the ego vs abandoning it). Just drop judgments of thinking that this is who you are, and who you are not, who you should be, who you should not be, etc. Also stop trying to think of a way to synthesise these two philosophies. Give yourself a break, relinquish control. As Dogen wrote in Fukanzazengi, "Put aside all involvements and suspend all affairs."

Just really sit. Let go.

I personally found it very scary at first... It felt like I was dying, like the world was going to end if I let my hold of it loosen. It takes some courage, and trust, and faith. Even if they say Buddhism is a compatible religion of modern times, I've found that some faith is still necessary especially when just sitting. Throw yourself into the fire, the whole world is Buddha's body burning in Buddha flames.

If it is difficult, it's ok. As Miyamoto Musashi said, "Of course it is difficult at first. Everything is difficult at first." Just keep trying, man. This practice may sound simple, sometimes easy, but it still takes some effort.

Good luck, Neo. You'll make it.

[Neo]

Thank you all for your answers, I really appreciate it. Just to clear something out, when I say that I'll try to fix my broken ego, I mean the western way, because that's what we do here (psychoanalysis etc). I know that in Buddhism there's no self to be fixed, rather dropping away of the self, broken or not. That's why people that suffered hard is more likely to take the 'spiritual path' compared to people who is raised in this society and has a 'working' ego.

I know my enemy is my self and, as you say Jundo, the crap that's inside my head that judges me, puts me down, all illusions. I don't know how to get to them, to make my 'soul' realize that it's just delusions created wrongly when I was little. It's dark ghosts that I live with every day, and they are affecting even my physical health as well. And you all say that zazen is the way to make me understand and, maybe not get rid of them, but to understand that it's only junk that don't need to have any impact on me?

Because I also know (or this is what i believe) that your thoughts create your reality. I believe in 'the law of attraction' somehow, it just makes sense to me. And right now, I'm attracting a lot of junk. Have anyone of you read James Allen, or maybe Neville Goddard? Maybe you can compare it with 'cultivating seeds' in the zen-training.

So yes, reading, even if I won't stop with it (because I enjoy reading) won't help me much with the dark pack of junk that I'm afraid of and is directing my life, giving me panic attacks etc. But zazen and 'facing my fears' in a practical way will (what else?), and I know it. It just feels so, scary... even though I know it's the only way to take 'control' of my life again. I live in a state of fear every day. I wish I could just see right through the illusions with all my knowledge, so they won't have any control over me anymore.

And finally. Fixing a broken ego can work to get a life that's, somehow livable, but in the movie 'the matrix', Neo takes the red pill, there's no way back. ... and also I have taken the red pill, I know it's no idea try to fix this ego, that I know is an illusion at the first place. 'ignorance is bliss', for some people, but I'm not ignorant and nor wish I to be.

[Jishin]

What is ego? What is self? :-)

Gassho, Jishin

[Neo]

What is ego? What is self? :-)

Gassho, Jishin

I get the feeling that u haven't read the whole post here.

Anyway, the zen answer is something like - It's a concept that most of us (99.9% living today) identifies as our self, our sense of worth, seperated from the reste of the world we experience. According to some old teachings it's just an illusion and we are so much more than this small self. Some of us, very few, realizes this and can now dance from morning to nightfall without any fear or anxiety, cause they have leaped beyond all fear.