evil passions are themselves enlightenment

[Stephanie]

Stephanie

It is our actions, and only our actions, that are "evil" or "good."

I do not think this is accurate.
I think that good and evil are only mental constructs.
A matter of perception, perhaps.

Gassho,
Jordan

Gassho~

Well, sure. But we've gotta use mental constructs to talk about this stuff, right?

Hi Stephanie. I'd like to know where you have gained this insight from and the conclusions that you have come to? Is it through your sitting practice?

In Gassho Will

Gassho~

It's come from a mix of things: my sitting practice, my day-to-day lived experience, and psychological research, actually. But the biggest component of it is the "experiential wisdom" part. I spent a lot of time on the cushion and in my daily life trying to make myself into something else--purer, better, more perfect, etc. Didn't think I should ever feel angry or sad, felt like the fact I still enjoyed sense pleasures as much as I did was a sign of how "unenlightened" I was. I went through this stupid mental battle on and off the cushion, but over time, I started to see the folly of this perspective.

Part of it too is that when I look out at the world and see other people, I cannot accept the notion that the common elements of the human experience are somehow worthless or erroneous or "impure." I don't want to go to a Heaven that excludes others and ignores those in hell, and I don't want to uphold a vision that negates the worth and power of the universal human experience.

But it really came out of seeing how I was using Buddhist teachings to further a cluster of neuroses and to abuse myself further. I was using these idealized teachings to "act out" my self-loathing and feelings of worthlessness. As I sat more, the focus became less on the absence or presence of certain kinds of thoughts, but the emotional tenor underlying them. I started to practice holding myself in a "field" of compassion, and it dramatically altered things. In a weird way, I began to look at my "self" as if from the outside and instead of wanting to destroy or alter it, I wanted to care for it, hold it in compassion.

This experience alerted me more and more to seeing how this inner battle is played out in so many others, and it's become one of my day-to-day "missions" to share a perspective that encourages acceptance and compassion of oneself as well as others. Often there's a very palpable shift when someone who's feeling really embarrassed or miserable sees that you don't see them or their situation that way, and then they realize that they don't have to see it that way either. That's one of the best things I ever experience--seeing someone shift out of the mindstates under which I suffered for so long.

And ironically, it's something that often occurs in the Buddhist practice world. People that haven't worked through basic psychological neuroses or conditioning just play them out in their practice, and they don't see it. I think that's a horrible tragedy, when people take the tools that could free them and just make their misery deeper. But maybe that's a necessary part of the path? It certainly has seemed that way for me.

[Rev R]

Hey Tigress,

This is a wonderful teaching expressive of the Tantric view.

Is it? I thought it was a brain fart like most of my comments.

[Gregor]

Well I think there are at least 101 ways to describe this phenomena. Whether we want to say we are extinguishing, transforming or redirecting . . . In the end it's the same process.

I straddle the line between the Zen and the Theravada/Insight perspective. I know I'm supposed to be a a big boy, make up my mind and pick and choose. But I don't really see a conflict between them. They all describe the same truth, emphasize the same values, and spring from the same roots (four noble truths and eightfold path).

[will]

Thanks for the reply Steph.

Gassho Will

[Jun]

I straddle the line between the Zen and the Theravada/Insight perspective. I know I'm supposed to be a a big boy, make up my mind and pick and choose. But I don't really see a conflict between them. They all describe the same truth, emphasize the same values, and spring from the same roots (four noble truths and eightfold path).

Brilliant, that is good to see.

[Mika]

Also, I do think that military service is within the Precepts if needed to save life.

In many cases military service, when saving the lives of your fellow countrymen, also requires taking the lives of the people labeled enemies. How does that fit in the picture?

[Jundo]

Hi Mike,

Good question! Let me try ...

Sometimes when we are told to fight an "enemy", we are just being fed propaganda. Sometimes, it may be a true enemy whose actions will do great damage to innocent lives. Sometimes we also know that, in our fighting the enemy, innocent lives will be taken too. The soldier (assuming he/she is given a choice) must weigh all that, including the likelihood of saving many lives by taking some lives.

My feeling is that all we can do is follow our hearts as to which course (fighting / not fighting) is likely to save more lives in the end. Furthermore, as in all human action, we cannot accurately foresee the actual results. Therefor, we must stick our finger into the wind, take our best guess, and act (or not act) accordingly.

(It is also a special situation if a soldier is drafted or ordered to fight, but let us leave that aside now. For many a soldier or most soldiers, there is a general commitment to sacrifice oneself for the good of a society without asking questions about particular orders received ... In that case, the soldier probably just has to do his/her duty, or choose "conscientious objector" status or go awol)

In all cases, if a soldier (or any of us) must do some harm (take some lives) in order to save other innocent lives, the soldier should still bear in his/her heart the weight of what he/she felt compelled to do (take life).

Is that a perfect formula? No, not at all. But is is the reality of how we must make a decision that is unsure and will have both positive and harmful effects both if we act and do not act. I think.

Gassho, Jundo

[will]

Deleted

[Mika]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply Jundo. I agree on many parts. I also like Will's path.

It is also a special situation if a soldier is drafted or ordered to fight, but let us leave that aside now.

Well, if you have time and would like to tackle this particular position too, I'd like to hear your thoughts of that as well. You see, in Finland the armed forces is formed mostly of conscript men so if push ever comes to shove around this part of the world many of the boys doing the fighting are not doing so of their own free will. And the same may of course be true about the other participants. Makes the issue even more difficult if everyone involved is there against their wishes... :?

My decision, at this point, is that I would not take part or actively support any such course of actions or plans that will result in deliberate killing of other human beings. Especially since nations and armies rarely (I'd say never but that's such a strong word!) exhaust all non-violent options before resorting to force.

[Jundo]

Hi Mika,

I have to speak merely from theory here, never having been a soldier. Perhaps Jordan and some of the other present and former military folks can offer insights from experience.

If you feel as you describe, I do not see that you have much choice besides to serve (and do as a soldier is expected to do) or go "awol" or (as may exist in a very progressive society like Finland) try to take "conscientious objector" status and do community service.

There is no single "right" answer here, I think. One person may choose to save life by defending society from threats, even if that means taking life ... including innocent life. Others may completely disagree and take the path you advocate. So long as the person is sincere in their heart about wishing to do what needs to be done to preserve life, I do not say which is best. I think a soldier who is out fighting to (as he/she sees it) protect the rest of us is doing an act in keeping with the Precepts ... especicially if he/she can somehow do so as "bitter medicine" without becoming trapped in the anger and hate.

My own teacher, Nishijima, has been quite a hawk of late. He thinks that wars such as Afganistan and Iraq were necessary to preserve "civilization", and thus "necessary evils". I had several discussion with him in which I tried to persuade him otherwise (especially with regard to Iraq). I did not change his mind.

Gassho, Jundo

[Mika]

(as may exist in a very progressive society like Finland) try to take "conscientious objector" status and do community service.

Yes, that is an option here, although with the present laws even those who perform community service instead of military service in time of peace are expected to grab the guns if a state of war is declared. That is however changing in the future - and it is good, I think. People should be allowed to follow their conscience in such matters. I would like to clarify a bit that I'm not asking for advice what to do here, as I have done my "duty", but just to hear how others view these matters and maybe gain some insight from a different perspective. And of course all this is merely philosophical playing for now because there's no actual threat involved.

There is no single "right" answer here, I think.

As often in (real) life. I do think, however, that there lies a danger in thinking that violence, killing or war is all right or the right course of action sometimes. In my opinion we should always think of the violent outcome of a situation as a failure and try to learn from it for the future, and at the same time - perhaps, as Buddhists - accept that the outcome is the present reality.

I think a soldier who is out fighting to (as he/she sees it) protect the rest of us is doing an act in keeping with the Precepts ... especicially if he/she can somehow do so as "bitter medicine" without becoming trapped in the anger and hate.

I once read somewhere, can't remember where and exactly what, some Buddhist teacher saying something to the effect that if you, when killing someone, do so with clear mind and are without hesitation willing and ready to suffer the pains of Hell as a result then the negative karma caused by the deed is redeemed. Of course this was very much linked into the reincarnation beliefs, but I think it had a similar idea at the bottom.

My own teacher, Nishijima, has been quite a hawk of late.

We all have our shortcomings.

With G,

Mika

[Fuken]

Perhaps Jordan and some of the other present and former military folks can offer insights from experience.

Sometimes when we are told to fight an "enemy", we are just being fed propaganda. Sometimes, it may be a true enemy whose actions will do great damage to innocent lives. Sometimes we also know that, in our fighting the enemy, innocent lives will be taken too. The soldier (assuming he/she is given a choice) must weigh all that, including the likelihood of saving many lives by taking some lives.

Jundo, this was really well stated. I think we could easily switch the words around in this to make it easily applicable to all concerned.

Sometimes when we are told to buy a product, we are just being fed advertisements.
Sometimes it may be a product that can/has/will do great damage to innocent lives.
Sometimes we also know that, in our buying or not buying a product, innocent lives will be affected too.
The consumer must weigh all that.

Consider the reasons that countries go to war. I see them as Idealism and materialism. They go to war because we consume ideas and materials. There is greed, there is anger, and there is ignorance on any opposing sides. The Soldier may enlist for flag or fortune, but the soldier only fights for the person next to him. The person next to him who he has shared meals with, prayed with, suffered with and shared fellowship with. In order to preserve the live we know we sometimes have to extinguish the life we do not know.
Before a fight a chaplain might say there are no atheists in foxholes, I say when you are actively engaging the enemy there is no room for idealism.

The cause of any conflict is never just enough. But the folks with the boots on the ground often are. I do not know what our civilian government is up to, I vote and that is all I can do to have my say. I know that my brothers overseas are doing the best they can do in the situation they find them selves in as I did when I was over there. Please do not judge then harshly.

I consider military life to be a life of service to my fellow Marines, and by extension service to the whole universe. So Mika, I do not know if what I say offers you any comfort but that is me weighting in, sorry if it appears ambiguous, but there are rules that I have to obey, much like the precepts, but much more legalistic.


In Gassho,
Jordan

[Gregor]

Jordan,

Thanks for sharing this. I think it points to some things that are pretty important for those of us who have not served in the military to realize.

take care,

Greg

[Fuken]

Greg, I am glad that you appreciated it.

Thank you! & Gassho,
Jordan