Mechanics of Enlightenment

[Jundo]

Hi Sam,

This is Zen, after all. Not easy to understand or to express in normal language. Have you read that Dogen fellow? All the old Koans? The Sixth Patriarch? Now those were guys who talked straight, but could not say a straight sentence!

I have actually been criticized in some Zen quarters for being TOO CLEAR and too down to earth, when one needs to really throw a wrench in the mental machinery.

My feeling is that some folks will get it, and some not. Everyone has different Karma. Today I was just trying to explain about Zen to an evangelical Christian friend, and realized that people hear what they wish.

I believe that if you sit this method even a tad incorrectly, it does not work and one is as far apart as earth and sky. Dogen famously wrote ...

The way is originally perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent on practice and realization? The true vehicle is self-sufficient. What need is there for special effort? Indeed, the whole body is free from dust. Who could believe in a means to brush it clean? It is never apart from this very place; what is the use of traveling around to practice? And yet, if there is a hairsbreadth deviation, it is like the gap between heaven and earth.

Although there is no way to sit as the way is originally perfect and all-pervading and the whole body is already free from dust ... without such attitude in the marrow it is impossible to sit it right, with the slightest deviation the gap is as between heaven and earth!

And please keep releasing those tangled streams of thought. Maybe Dogen had the best description of how to non-sit when he timelessly wrote (in Zazenshin) ...

While Great Master Yakusan Kōdō is sitting, a monk asks him, “What are you thinking in the still-still state?” The master says, “Thinking the concrete state of not thinking.” The monk says, “How can the state of not thinking be thought?” The master says, “It is non-thinking.”

Experiencing the state in which the words of the great master are like this, we should learn in practice “mountain-still sitting,” and we should receive　the authentic transmission of “mountain-still sitting”: this is the investigation of “mountain-still sitting” that has been transmitted in Bud dhism. “Thinking in the still-still state” is not of only one kind, but Yakusan’s words are one example of it. Those words are “Thinking the concrete state of not thinking.” They include “thinking” as skin, flesh, bones, and marrow, and “not thinking”　as skin, flesh, bones, and marrow. The monk says, “How can the state　of not thinking be thought?” Truly, although “the state of not think ing” is　ancient, still it is “How can it be thought about!” “In the still-still state” how　could it be impossible for “thinking” to exist? And why do [people] not understand　the ascendancy of “the still-still state”? If they were not the stupid people　of vulgar recent times, they might possess the power, and might possess　the thinking, to ask about “the still-still state.” The great master says, “It is　non-thinking.” This use of “non-thinking” is brilliant; at the same time, whenever　we “think the state of not thinking,” we are inevitably using “non-thinking.”

In “non-thinking” there is someone, and [that] someone is main taining　and relying upon me. “The still-still state,” although it is I, is not only “thinking”:　it is holding up the head of “the still-still state.” Even though “the stillstill　state” is “the still-still state,” how can “the still-still state” think “the stillstill　state”? So “the still-still state” is beyond the intellectual capacity of Buddha,　beyond the intellectual capacity of　the Dharma, beyond the intellectual capacity　of the state of realization, and beyond the intellectual capacity of understanding　itself.

http://www.bdkamerica.org/digital/dBET_T2582_Shobogenzo2_2008.pdf

Gassho, Jundo

[Tiwala]

Hi Jundo,

Do we literally mean that this body, this life, is perfect with nothing to change? Or is this in terms of emptiness? I can't possibly sit down to my core believing this to be true. It feels like a surrendering of reason, along with compassion. If there is nothing to change, why did numerous people from the past have to search relentlessly for an answer? Even Dogen?

Please answer this in illusion if necessary. If what I read is correct, Dogen considered the relative to be the absolute, so please be as clear as possible with this one great question I have of practice. It bothers me to no end, and I don't think I can practice correctly if this doubt is not put to rest.

Gassho, Ben

[MyoHo]

From my own experience, stop, drop and roll with what Jundo ( and Taigu) are saying bro's. I cannot begin to express of what value Jundo's way of explaining has been for me in the past year. Ever since I stopped running around in circles on my own and feeding my ego while sitting and carefully studied the answers given by Jundo and Taigu like koan's, practice has deepened greatly for me. Precisely because the way the answers are given and due to the unprecedented level of care and attention.There was even an inside view of the way our teachers measure our answers on Zen issues (about squeezing balloons) by Jundo once! A teacher explaining his methods ? This is UNHEARD OFF in other zendo, dojo or anywhere and is precious indeed ! It stole my hart there and then, but that is just me .

So I feel a little gentle feedback from my humble place closest to the door is in place, if that's OK?

Do you think you could interact and build an open relationship like this, with teachers like these, being the novices that we are, in say Eiheiji today? We would both be digging latrines and opening the door for the rest of the sangha for the first year m8! A little bell ringing right away, is all we would ever get for our "I don't get this" questions. Count your fortunes very very carefully now!

Yes there is a lot of repetition but this has NOTHING to do with the qualities of the teachers m8. The flavor our teacher serve us here is as plain and straight as it comes. The problem our teachers face every time we decide we have a question, is to give an answer, consider who it is given to and to stay true to Zen and squeeze the balloon at both sides at the same time. If the questions are the same every time, so will be the answers, no? I personally would start to worry if the answers would differ and appreciate the fact Jundo and Taigu are kind enough not to just copy and paste a thread as an answer, every time we start about enlightenment again! That's just well, very COOOL!

Not getting it, is your problem (and mine) every time. It's not in the teachers way of explaining or the way they decide to answer the question. Buddha buddhaing Buddha while giving Buddha a Buddha answer about Buddha being Buddha, is as straight forward as it gets, if you get it that is?

I feel you make it sound like doing this method a bit incorrectly or differently (from what you instruct) doesn't work. For example Brad Warner and some other teachers tell not to worry about thoughts and instruct to let thinking be as it is. You teach students to keep waking up from thought (which is fine too and can be one way to do it) and insist any other way is incorrect. Some teachers don't correct minor things as long as the student's overall direction is correct.

Isn't this precisely what Treeleaf is about? Or did you get a precise and rigid breathing or posture instruction class that I missed somehow? Kyosaku practice or strict do or die Dokusan procedures maybe? Titles and a rigid hierarchy structure? NO! Just gentle and patient guidance about what IT is not. I'm not you, you are not me nor are we other people, right?

My kid has a way of asking me questions by starting to explain to me how ice cream is made, an engine or even the universe works. Makes him feel like a big boy. He thinks up some complicated process or situation ( complicated because all grown up things must always be complicated ) and then starts telling me how it works. He is searching, because he is now getting the sense things just might be even greater and even more magical then he thinks. A good thing.

Should I explain to him in detail how an ice cream factory actually works? Is it of any use? Don't want to put wrong ideas in his head and all. Does it change the flavor? It might even ruin ice cream for him forever, if he really knew how it is made and take away all that summer pleasure still to come in his young life? No way! I always listen to how the question is asked, in what words or time and then decide how I should answer it. Jundo thought me that in some answer on this forum, not too long ago. A 6 year old phrases a question very differently from an 18 year old, would you not agree? To me, this is the same in our zen practice and questions. The huge task at hand for our teachers here at Treeleaf, is to hold that fine balance, keep the precepts and try to help people find their own questions to the answers ( (phun intended) by giving an answer that is not an answer, yet being your answer. Get it?

All in great appreciation and gratitude for your practice.

Gassho

Enkyo

[shikantazen]

Do you think you could interact and build an open relationship like this, with teachers like these, being the novices that we are, in say Eiheiji today? We would both be digging latrines and opening the door for the rest of the sangha for the first year m8! A little bell ringing right away, is all we would ever get for our "I don't get this" questions. Count your fortunes very very carefully now!

Yes, very true

Gassho,
Sam

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

Do we literally mean that this body, this life, is perfect with nothing to change? Or is this in terms of emptiness? I can't possibly sit down to my core believing this to be true. It feels like a surrendering of reason, along with compassion. If there is nothing to change, why did numerous people from the past have to search relentlessly for an answer? Even Dogen?

Please answer this in illusion if necessary. If what I read is correct, Dogen considered the relative to be the absolute, so please be as clear as possible with this one great question I have of practice. It bothers me to no end, and I don't think I can practice correctly if this doubt is not put to rest.

Gassho, Ben

Hi Ben,

Let me make this as clear as I can, and if it is hard to compute and digest, the reason is mostly because such is not our usual way of thinking about life. (Sorry Sam).

Position "A" - There is a certain "Perfection" beyond small human judgments of "perfection and imperfection". In the Wholeness of reality, there is a certain way to experience that nothing is lacking. Things might not be "perfect" (small "p"), but each and all is perfectly just what it is ... and even a flaw is completely flawed, a garbage dump is perfectly dumpy when we drop human judgments　and personal aversions and attractions. Yes, I am speaking with regard to emptiness. There is nothing in need of fixing because there is no "thing" in need of fixing. Thus Dogen wrote (and countless Mahayana Buddhist folks agreed through the centuries) ...

The way is originally perfect and all-pervading. How could it be contingent on practice and realization? The true vehicle is self-sufficient. What need is there for special effort? Indeed, the whole body is free from dust. Who could believe in a means to brush it clean?

Position "B" - On the other hand, OF COURSE this world is not "perfect"! There are ugly diseases we should try to cure, flaws we should try to avoid, wars to end, smelly garbage we had best pick up. There are things that are good and things that are bad in this world.

Zen (and most of Mahayana Buddhism) is rather a "Super-Position AB" ... in which A and B are met as both true at once from different perspective, and actually so intimate and simultaneously true that "Position B" is perceived very differently from before this fact is realized.** Now, we have "stinky garbage" that is just what it is ... but we had best clean it up too. We have disease that is flawlessly flawed with nothing to cure ... but let us also try to find a cure and take our medicine nonetheless. Thus, Dogen and the other Mahayana and Zen teachers remind us, we need to do some practice to realize this "Super-Position".

Why?

Because our brains are too flawed and filled with mental garbage to perceive this Truth easily.

Sorry, I don't know how to make it any clearer than that ... and am probably doing a disservice by spelling it out at all.

Gassho, J

** Side note: "Position A", in a sense, is constantly changing too as "Position B" changes because B and A are not separate so every change in "B" is just "A" changing too ... yet simultaneously, "Position A" might be said to be beyond change because so Whole and because there is no separate "outside viewer" or separate "things to change" within it. However, pointing that out may only confuse someone's flawed brain more (so please forget I mentioned it!). Thus, there is no enlightenment to be "pursued" or to "get" because no separate "person" to pursue "it" that is apart ... and such is precisely what the separate person realizes as Truth when she "gets" it! Most of the Koans, by the way, are about stuff like this. Here is Case 32 in the Book of Serenity

CASE 32: Kyôzan's Mind and Objective World

Kyôzan asked a monk, "Where do you come from?" The monk said, "I am from Yû Province" Kyôzan said, "Do you think of that place?" The monk said, "I always do." Kyôzan said, "That which thinks is the mind. That which is thought about is the objective world. Within that are mountains, rivers and the great earth, towers, palaces, people, animals, and other things. Reflect upon the mind that thinks. Are there a lot of things there?" The monk said, "I don't see anything at all there." Kyôzan said, "That's right for the stage of understanding, but not yet for the stage of personalization." The monk said, "Do you have any special advice, Master?" Kyôzan said, "It is not right to say that there is or there is not. Your insight shows that you have obtained only one side of the mystery. Sitting down, putting on clothes – from now on you see by yourself."

Commentary: I wonder why Kyozan could not just have been a straighter talker?

[Tiwala]

Hi Jundo,

Firstly, I would like to thank you on being so patient with me. It pains me to have to bother people asking about this.... I feel great shame and gratitude at the same time.

And this stupid kid still has questions, but this time I would only like to express them... if it's better to leave them unanswered to your discretion, do so without, hesitation.

But if we practice to realize there was nothing to realize, whatever that is, and a prerequisite of sorts for practice is to sit with the wholeness (perhaps from the nothing to realize bit), how can we practice?

As to why he could not be clear, well, I did read an article or a paper once about how someone insisted that calling the old masters' methods irrational were doing them a disservice... giving it so weirdly apparently makes the student keep practicing... as youve seen with me I'm still relentlessly struggling like a pig being slowly butchered, with, the internal squeeling and shouting and kicking etc. I just sometimes feel guilt that I feel this way....which I think is bad? Its like the complete opposite of wholeness, etc. Obviously this clarity hasn't penetrated in me at all. There are so many questions.

The only thing that's keeping me on my cushion is, ironically in a soto zendo, great faith, great doubt, and great, albeit grave, determination. I see no wholeness anywhere at all.



Gassho, Ben

[Jundo]

But if we practice to realize there was nothing to realize, whatever that is, and a prerequisite of sorts for practice is to sit with the wholeness (perhaps from the nothing to realize bit), how can we practice?

We practice diligently and sincerely to realize what has been here all along ... because otherwise we do not realize such was here all along.

We sit in Wholeness ... all while feeling anything but whole (and that is the reason most of us start to practice).

How to Practice? ... Sit Zazen, fetch water and carry wood, chant the Heart Sutra, go to work, feed the kids ... repeat as needed.

Gassho, J

[Tiwala]

http://seattlebuddhist.org/gassho.gif

[shikantazen]

I just want to add something to the discussion. I think there are two components of sitting practice

1. Acceptance/Allowing-things-to-be-as-they-are/Sitting-in-Wholeness/Nothing-to-be-fixed/No-future-thing-to-be-desired or attained (Goalless)/Beyond-time-space/Letting-go-of-control
2. Awareness/Presence/Not-being-lost

Traditional methods: Cultivate awareness first through shamatha practices (breath counting/following) and once certain level of concentration is attained you sit in wholeness

Awareness requires effort and doing something. Sitting-in-Wholeness doesn't involve a technique or intentional effort and is more of a "letting go of control" process. In my experience at least, just doing #1 is enough and it will eventually lead to #2 too. Trying to do #1 along with #2 somehow didn't work for me. Whenever I tried to "do something" (for example waking up from thought (Jundo) or being aware of sounds (Taigu)) my practice felt like a struggle and my sitting had none of the qualities described in #1 (nothing-to-be-fixed, goalless, letting-go-of-control). Things really started to fall in place for me when I did just #1.

Just wanted to add this.

Gassho,
Sam

[Jundo]

Hi Sam,

You do understand that there is a way in which letting go of trains of thought is not "doing something", but rather it is -not- to do something (not to engage in trains of thought)?

It is like my joke about thoughts being like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer. To "stop hitting yourself with the hammer" is not to "do something". Rather, it is to stop "doing something" (to stop hitting yourself!).



Anyway, it is just semantics ... this "do" or "not do". Just stop hitting yourself in the head with long trains of thought and tangled emotion, and put the thought hammer down.

However, if someone's idea of Zazen and "not doing" is just to sit there and let long trains of thought play out, or their idea of "allowing" is just to "allow yourself to wallow in emotion", they miss the point of "allowing" and "not doing".

By the way, I don't see so clearly this 1 and 2 you mention. All seems like one to me.

Anyway, Sam, you just sit however you sit. If it works for you, that is fine. Only you are the ultimate judge.

Gassho, J

[dharmasponge]

....am I allowed back here in yet Jundo? ;-)

_/|\_


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

....am I allowed back here in yet Jundo? ;-)

_/|\_


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Did you go someplace? Certainly not at my behest. Gassho, J

[TimF]

New guy chiming in....

After reading through this thread I continued to find myself back in the "Zen Talks and Teachings" section of the Zendo. I am currently going through each of the teachings in the "Sit-a-long with Jundo: Zazen for Beginners" section and I wanted to quote Jundo from here.

Shikantaza “Just Sitting” is an unusual way of meditation, and might be compared to running a long distance foot race in a most unusual way. In most ordinary races, people run to win something, seeking to cross the finish line at the end of the course, far down the road and over distant hills. So the runners keep on pushing ahead, striving with all their might to get to that goal, the crossing of which will finally make them victors. In Zen, that distant goal is sometimes called “Enlightenment.”

And in Shikantaza too, we do not give up. We keep pushing ahead diligently with our practice, step by step and inch by inch, seeking the goal. However, the “goal” turns out not to be where we thought it was, and the way of its crossing not as first imagined.

For, in Shikantaza we must come to realize that the “goal” is not the crossing of some far off line. Instead, each step-by-step of the race itself IS the destination fully attained, the finish line is ever underfoot and constantly crossed with each inch. Each step is instantaneously a perfect arriving at the winner’s tape!

To know that there is no finish line to cross even as we run the race, no target to hit, is to perpetually arrive at the finish line with each stride, ever hitting the target, always arriving home. But despite the fact that the “trophy” was ours all along, we do not give up, do not sit down at the starting line, do not quit and jump out early from the race (of our practice, our life). We do not turn back or waste time. For that reason, some call our Practice a great, constant striving for the “Goalless goal.”

Not sure if this helps with the original question about enlightenment, but I have found that this passage (along with the video) helps me to understand why we sit.

Gassho,
Tim

[Tiwala]

I have wonderful news! I finally got it! Like for real this time! Actually, no, no one was there to get it. How horrifyingly stupid it all is! Amazing!

I feel like rolling in the mud, reclining on my back quite ready to pass into para nirvana over and over again for all eternity.

Thank you thank you everyone from the bottom of my heart!

Gassho, Ben

[Jundo]

I have wonderful news! I finally got it! Like for real this time! Actually, no, no one was there to get it. How horrifyingly stupid it all is! Amazing!

I feel like rolling in the mud, reclining on my back quite ready to pass into para nirvana over and over again for all eternity.

Thank you thank you everyone from the bottom of my heart!

Gassho, Ben

If you feel that this is all of it ... it certainly is not.

If you feel that there is not all of it ... perhaps.

Gassho, Jundo