Ice Cream is Served ...

[Bansho]

Hi Stephanie,

I'm basically happy with my life as it is. And yet... there's this feeling that something is missing, and it's this connection with whatever the "why" question is pointing me to. Again, I certainly find it plausible that this is just some sort of brain-hiccup, but it persists nonetheless.

It sounds like the question is your problem, not the answer, so why not just drop the question? Are you familiar with MN 63., the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta? If not, it might be worth having a look at.
http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta ... ta-e2.html

Gassho
Ken

[Jundo]

It sounds like the question is your problem, not the answer, so why not just drop the question? Are you familiar with MN 63., the Cula-Malunkyovada Sutta? If not, it might be worth having a look at.
http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Sutta ... ta-e2.html

Gassho
Ken

A very nice reference, Ken. One of my favorites. G, J

[TracyF]

Hi Steph! I never had a chance to welcome you.

I really like everyone's responses in this thread and I totally agree.

Thanks for bringing that over, Kenneth. It sums up what everyone is saying. I like what Shak says at the end:

"And why are they undisclosed by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are undisclosed by me.

"And what is disclosed by me? 'This is stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the origination of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress,' is disclosed by me. And why are they disclosed by me? Because they are connected with the goal, are fundamental to the holy life. They lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That's why they are disclosed by me.

"So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undisclosed by me as undisclosed, and what is disclosed by me as disclosed."

Personally, I find it hard to fathom that there is a "why". I can't imagine for a second that the Universe has an agenda. In fact, it doesn't even have an agenda to exist. Scientists are now suggesting that there are multiple universes and that universes likely existed for eternity.

Even if there is a personal God, there may STILL be no "why". Maybe God ate a big pot of cosmic beans and the big bang is nothing but one of God's farts. Oops, here we are! Or God was bored and made a little universe to play with like my daughter makes villages outside in the mud. If you asked her "why", she wouldn't even be able to answer.

Trying to force a human conception, such as "why", onto existence is fruitless. I'm pretty sure you know this, intellectually, Steph. Maybe your problem is that you don't FEEL this. Or maybe you feel it but it makes you uncomfortable.

Regardless, I think zen is a way to either get to the point where you can say, "mu to why" or feel comfortable without the "why".

One of my students made the mistake of telling me that she was in graduate school to get a PhD. Ooo, she got in trouble for that! She's in graduate school to learn how to do science. Once we see that she's a scientist, we award her a PhD. Likewise, I think we practice Zen not to find the meaning of life but to FEEL/KNOW/SEE that "we" (humans, universe(s), etc) simply are what we are. Myself? Sometimes I get little flashes of it. Mostly, I forget. So I practice, practice, practice..... :lol:

[John]

I'm sorry but I'm inclined to go with Stephanie on this one. I ask too many questions too. That's why I left Christianity - I asked too many questions about issues like why the Bible was the 'word of God' etc. instead of just accepting it on faith like everyone else. I get a bit suspicious if I am told not to question what I'm taught, in any group. I start to wonder if I am in a cult. I thought the Buddha told us to test everything we are taught, not to just accept things blindly on faith?

Of course, there are pointless questions we will never get an answer to using rational thought, (that seems the point of the poisoned arrow story to me) but I think it's the just the way we humans are. If we hadn't asked questions, came up with likely solutions and then tested them in practice, it's likely our species would have died out by now, or we would still be living in caves! In my opinion it's our questioning, enquiring, wondering nature that caused us to evolve to where we are now, like it or not. Other animals don't ask questions, that's the difference between them and us. And I thought that the purpose of any good education system should be to foster this active, enquiring, open, attitude to life. Not just give instructions for how to do things? And perhaps some of us naturally have more of this questioning temperament than others?

Zen practice and zazen helps us to realise that there are other more intuitive ways to understand and handle life, but I think right understanding of a rational kind is necessary too. I hope I'm not upsetting anyone - it's just my point of view,

Gassho,
John

[lindabeekeeper]

Hi Stephanie,

I relate to your quest for why (I am a scientist by nature and a librarian by profession so researching is second nature to me).

But one realization I've had lately is that my search for "why" is an attempt to control my surroundings. But in truth, trying to control something that can't be controlled brings me pain. I don't know if this is the same for you.

Sometimes we just need to learn to let go.

Gassho

Linda

[Stephanie]

Thank you, John! I share your sentiments about the value of inquiry 100%. Without inquiry and analysis, we wouldn't have the Four Noble Truths, or Dogen's answer(s) to his personal koan, "Why practice if we are already perfect as we are...?"

And not to be rude, but I get the sense that some of you are NOT LISTENING :lol:

I've tried to let go of "Why?" a bazillion times. I've done it through finding "answers," only to find that even if they're good "answers" I still believe in (such as love and compassion being closely related to the truth of who and what we are), after some time, it's not enough and I start wondering again. I've done it through telling myself that "Why?" is just a thought and is ultimately meaningless. I've done it by practicing mindfulness and letting go of analysis. But it keeps coming back! What you all are telling me is nothing new!

I've used "the Buddhist toolkit" to relinquish a lot of obsessions and thought patterns. I've found zazen and mindfulness especially useful for dealing with thoughts that contribute to or deepen depression. I've made a lot of peace with my life and found a lot of contentment through the freedom zazen has granted me in not having to believe my thoughts. I'm even-tempered in any number of stressful situations, and when I start to get annoyed, I can see those thoughts for what they are and let go, etc. When I start working myself into a funk over some loss or lack, I can catch it and see the comparing mind at work and ask, "But why should your life be like that? Why does it have to be like that for you to be happy?"

But the logos question just does not respond to this sort of practice. It always comes back. But as annoying as it can sometimes be, I'm not sure I'd live a happier, wiser, more fulfilled life if I "accepted" the "truth" that we live in a meaningless universe and that "Why?" is just an irrelevant byproduct of human thought. Maybe it's true, but if so, why bother with religion or practice at all? Just to make oneself a little calmer or happier? Couldn't you just take a pill for that? Or get a weekly massage?

[Stephanie]

Linda: Gassho-

You make an interesting point, and I think "Why?" often does emerge in response to "control issues."

However--it is not always that, and when it is, it is not just that. I wish I could succinctly sum up every nuance of mood that goes with it, the hunger and the longing, the loneliness, the feeling of "there being something 'there'" but yet in a way I can't quite touch or discern, the hope, the despair, the joy and the sorrow and the way they are intertwined... It's not just a rational/analysis thing. It feels more like poetry than prose.

I'm not looking for an explanation, but an understanding that is more like a feeling of connection, of being at home in the universe. I'm not even sure what it is, really. But it puts everything else in my life "on hold." I get bored or restless even with the things I enjoy, because there is a deeper yearning that pervades every encounter. I go everywhere looking for "it," trying to find people who feel it too, and always, I come out of it alienated, in ways I can't quite explain, because I meet other "seekers" all the time.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't so bothered and could just enjoy a "normal life," as this yearning has taken over so much, and driven me to solitude even when I have not found joy in it. But at the very least, I've realized that to wish I did not have this drive for whatever-it-is is like wishing I wasn't female, or blonde, or smart. The latter two might up and change some day but for now they're part of this "body-mind package" I've got. I've got to live with this question, and maybe the question is its own reason. But it is a harsh and demanding master, and as much as I want to sometimes, I can't get away from it.

HezB, you're right, and when I'm on the cushion is one of the only times it doesn't bother me. I don't need to justify why I sit, as sitting justifies itself. But I can't sit on the cushion forever. And I'm not cut out for the monastic life. As for the question not needing to be "a source of discomfort," see the above. Being "on the 'why?' trail" has brought me a lot of success and joy and sometimes that "religious impulse" is the most wonderful, joyful thing in the world, but it's also brought a lot of loneliness and pain.

[Jundo]

I get a bit suspicious if I am told not to question what I'm taught, in any group. I start to wonder if I am in a cult. I thought the Buddha told us to test everything we are taught, not to just accept things blindly on faith?

Hi John,

There is a little difference about our "not questioning" some things in Zen Buddhism, I think ...

First, let me tell you to question 100% everything (especially anything I tell you, or you read in Uchiyama's book, or anywhere). Doubt it all. You may have to have trust in the practice for awhile but, unless you can eventually taste these things for yourself, reject them. Unless you can taste the ice cream for yourself, do not believe it. Personally, I am a skeptic's skeptic (I do not believe in flying saucers, Big Foot, guardian angels, Buddha's in the sky, the Loch Ness monster ... from your neighborhood). What I teach here is just new ways of looking at ourselves and the world, no more complex than those mirrors in the carnival funhouse that bend light differently so that reality appears quite otherwise .

Second, often Zen and Buddhism says that we "don't know" because, honestly, humans don't and probably can't know. Is there a god named Fred or Tom? If so, live your life, fetch wood and carry water. Is there not a god named Fred or Tom? If so, live your life, fetch wood and carry water.

As a matter of fact, one thing very special about Zen Buddhism, I think, is that we do not demand you believe in anything you cannot experience yourself and, further, we admit we do not know some stuff and don't claim any fairy tale story that we ask folks to believe in on "faith" to make up for it.

HOWEVER, we do learn to give some questions "no nevermind" (to quote my grandmother). It is not that we "don't know", as much as we are content to watch the play without seeing backstage, content to watch the story without knowing the playwright's name (or if there is a playwright).

I sometimes compare our attitude to that I witnessed with a new born baby in a crib. He may not know that the shadows hovering over him, placing food in his mouth now and then, are "mom & dad". He may not know much of anything. Yet, there is a feeling of trust in those shadows. I feel that we should trust in much the same way this world that keeps sticking food in our mouths ... even though it makes us cry sometimes.

So, our Zen attitude, perhaps, is one of trust in a world we cannot understand, trust whether it has meaning or is meaningless ... in either case, we watch the play. Things will go where they get to.

But, if you really want an answer more than that, I will tell you: God's name is "Fred".

Gassho, Jundo

[Eika]

Stephanie wrote:
In all seriousness, you present well the Zen teaching of truth as "just this." I am well acquainted with the "truth" of a cold wind or a warm bath. But yet I have an intense desire to know more, to know why... And why is that? Maybe if I could figure out why I want to know "why," it would tell me all I need to know, but it seems just as elusive to me. I think life as it is without any "big questions" answered is pretty good, so why I have such an intense hunger to know the answers to those questions is baffling at times.

I think some of these questions are entirely reasonable . . . but I believe you are wrong to expect Zen practice to answer them. I don't expect Zen to help me understand why music is such a captivating human endeavor. So, nothing wrong with questions, but you have to ask the right people if you want an answer that makes sense. Zen is not the answer to those kinds of questions, in my opinion.

I'm not sure I'd live a happier, wiser, more fulfilled life if I "accepted" the "truth" that we live in a meaningless universe and that "Why?" is just an irrelevant byproduct of human thought. Maybe it's true, but if so, why bother with religion or practice at all? Just to make oneself a little calmer or happier? Couldn't you just take a pill for that? Or get a weekly massage?

I may be wrong, but I don't remember Jundo or anyone else here suggesting that the universe is meaningless. Zen practice is about coming to terms with the universe as it is, not understanding the "meaning" of it. Nihilism is not a part of Zen as I understand it. The question of "why" is fine, but Zen won't answer it, I don't think. The practice is about learning to appreciate and accept the world that has been given to us, not about learning who gave it to us or why. Those are topics for another field.

John wrote:
In my opinion it's our questioning, enquiring, wondering nature that caused us to evolve to where we are now, like it or not. Other animals don't ask questions, that's the difference between them and us. And I thought that the purpose of any good education system should be to foster this active, enquiring, open, attitude to life. Not just give instructions for how to do things? And perhaps some of us naturally have more of this questioning temperament than others?

Zen practice and zazen helps us to realise that there are other more intuitive ways to understand and handle life, but I think right understanding of a rational kind is necessary too. I hope I'm not upsetting anyone - it's just my point of view,

Hi, John. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Stephanie shouldn't have questions or should accept advice without critical appraisal. I think the issue here is the appropriateness of her questions to Zen practice. No offense to Jundo, but I don't want to know his answers about physics. Likewise, I wouldn't expect a physics book to answer a question about 17th Century counterpoint. There are answers that simply are not in the Zen "book." How to be entirely present during the experience of eating ice-cream is a Zen question. Why humans enjoy the experience of eating ice-cream is a question for a different field of study, in my opinion (cognition/psychology/etc.). Zen cannot answer all of the "big questions" because it is not about content but process and action. From this perspective, what we know is not nearly as important as how we know.

My confused 2¢,
Bill

[Jundo]

No offense to Jundo, but I don't want to know his answers about physics.

According to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, a race of vast pan-dimensional hyper-intelligent beings constructed the second greatest computer in all of time and space, Deep Thought, to calculate The Ultimate Answer to The Great Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything. ... After seven and a half million years of computing cycles, Deep Thought's answer is:

.................................................. ... forty two.


"I think the problem is that the question was too broadly based..."[1]

"Forty two?!" yelled Loonquawl. "Is that all you've got to show for seven and a half million years' work?"

"I checked it very thoroughly," said the computer, "and that quite definitely is the answer. I think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is that you've never actually known what the question is."[2]
”

After teaching Arthur Dent about Deep Thought, Slartibartfast muses:

“ I always think that the chances of finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied.... What does it matter? Science has achieved some wonderful things of course, but I'd far rather be happy than right any day ... [But I am not,] that's where it all falls down of course.[2]

[will]

What question does your tongue ask? Or your toe?

Where do you end and I begin? But really, what does your toe tell you?


You know. Do "you" have a breath? Do "You" breathe? Things do what they do, but "we" are in no way doing any of it. "I" is just what (I've heard it referred to before) self-image thinks it is.

There really truly is no I. Only is. Whether you feel happy or sad about that is only a reaction, but "You" are not that reaction. And you is no place at all.


G,W

[Eika]

Thanks, Jundo.

I actually wouldn't mind hearing your views on physics, I was simply making a point about asking the right person when you need certain kinds of answers.

I love the Douglas Adams stuff . . .

Bill

[John]

First, let me tell you to question 100% everything (especially anything I tell you, or you read in Uchiyama's book, or anywhere). Doubt it all. You may have to have trust in the practice for awhile but, unless you can eventually taste these things for yourself, reject them. Unless you can taste the ice cream for yourself, do not believe it. Personally, I am a skeptic's skeptic (I do not believe in flying saucers, Big Foot, guardian angels, Buddha's in the sky, the Loch Ness monster ... from your neighborhood). What I teach here is just new ways of looking at ourselves and the world, no more complex than those mirrors in the carnival funhouse that bend light differently so that reality appears quite otherwise .

Thanks Jundo. I certainly agree with that. Some of the posts here seem to be suggesting that if you ask questions that means you expect to get definitive answers that settle the matter for once and for all. Questioning, to me, is just part of the process of learning. I don't always expect to get answers, or, at least, answers that make any sense to me. Doesn't koan study show that asking questions can serve as a way of showing the inadequacy of rationally thought out responses and point to a direct experience of life instead?

Gassho,
John

[TracyF]

What is our role in the universe?

Why here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWVshkVF0SY[/video]]

And what is the meaning of life?
Well here it is too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBArMmngVH4[/video]]

And that's all I can say about that! ops:

[John]

Yeah, but we have to face up to it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp1HVg_J7QA[/video]]