ADD, Practice, Trying Without Trying - How do you do it?

[Mp]

Hello Ben,

I don't anything more to add that has not already been said. To simplify, I think Stacy says it well.

Boredom is just a state of mind.

Keep going with your practice ... things will work out, they usually do.

Gasshoo
Shingen

[Yugen]

Hi Ben,
I admire and respect your honesty in sharing with us.

What I am about to say please take with a huge grain of salt as I am a hopeless beginner and novice priest.

The notion of small "bite size" Zazen sessions taken frequently I think is a great idea. Build from there. There is a lot of good wisdom here, and trust your own instincts as well. Knowing which questions to ask is an important piece of self knowledge.

I bow deeply to you

Yugen

[Nameless]

Very true Stacy! Boredom implies that there's actually something to do, when actually at the same time there is always non-doing. It's kind of an aversion to how things are, thus boredom can create the conditions for Dukkha to arise. I used to feel bored a LOT. Not sure what happened, but these days there isn't a trace. Regardless, you'll be fine Ben if you practice; because really you're fine right now

Gassho, John

[Jundo]

Hi,

I am going to say a couple of points that may surprise some:

First, it is possible that, if some's mental state were extreme such as in the case of truly uncontrollable runaway thoughts or other mental condition (e.g., someone suffering uncontrolled manic-depression, paranoia, psychosis or the like), that Shikantaza may not be right for them, and might be very wrong. The person's Karma (or just biology) means they are not cut out for it, that they might benefit from other forms of meditation (for example, one focused on a Koan phrase or image of Buddha in order to anchor the thoughts), or perhaps no form of meditation is right for them. In some cases, it may even be dangerous to meditate at all!

Now, please do not misunderstand: I really don't think that we are there yet with Ben! It is too early to tell yet, after just a short time, whether Shikantaza is suited to him or not. Please stick with "Just Sitting" some more.

Second, as strange as it sounds, "non-thinking" in Shikantaza can happen even in and as "runaway thoughts". This is a tricky point. However, Ben describes how his mind is filled with thoughts and he must sometimes make great effort to keep things from overflowing. One would misunderstand Shikantaza "Letting Thoughts Go" as an either/or proposition with doing that. In other words, one can do both at once! Yes, sounds like a conumdrum ... but this is Zen after all.

In our way, one can have a flood of thoughts AND SIMULTANEOUSLY drop all thoughts, judgments, goals and such AT ONCE AS ONE. If it sounds like a Koan, it is.

How to explain? Well, we simultaneously taste a realm beyond all thoughts and divisions right amid and as all thoughts and divisions. So, one can also taste a realm beyond "floods of thought" even as you continue on having "floods of thoughts" from ADD. It is a bit like being caught in a hurricane of swirling thoughts like the storm's wind, yet simultaneously experience the silence and stillness of the storm's center AS ONE.

Does that kind of make sense ... in a Zenny way?

So, please do not give up on Shikantaza yet.

Furthermore, as I have frequently written about Shikantaza in the face of many conditions such as depression, anxiety disorders and the like: Zazen can go hand-in-hand with medical treatment for the same. The following speaks of panic attacks, but also applies to other conditions that people might be suffering such as depression, addictions and the like ... even ADD:

Our emphasis here is on Shikantaza ... which may be said to be "being one" with what ails one, although not necessarily a cure for what ails one. HOWEVER, that "being one" with life ... can relieve much suffering in life. It is a strange thing ... we do not sit Shikantaza to be "better" or to make life "other than as it is" ...

... Yet, in the very stillness of letting life be "as is it" and embracing all of life ... and in dropping the hard borders and divisions between our "self" and the world ... this practice does thereby leave almost all people better ... and often does work an effective cure (or is one helpful part of the cure) ... from depression, stress, addiction, compulsive disorders, eating disorders, anger issues, self loathing ... you name it.

We do emphasize mindfulness of our thoughts and emotions ... but not as a form of meditation. However, our Zazen is the radical non-doing of Shikantaza, and the "mind theatre" and tricks and games of the human mind is something that naturally we also become better able to recognize and avoid from sitting.

... I suspect that Shikantaza ... in its quietness, in the total stillness and acceptance ... would be something helpful with what you describe ...

Zazen is -NOT- a cure for many things ... it will not fix a bad tooth (just allow you to be present with the toothache ... you had better see a dentist, not a Zen teacher), cure cancer (although it may have some healthful effects and make one more attune to the process of chemotherapy and/or dying), etc. Zen practice will not cure your acne on your face, or fix your flat tire. All it will do is let one "be at one, and whole" ... TRULY ONE ... with one's pimples and punctured wheel, accepting and embracing of each, WHOLLY WHOLE with/as each one. There are many psychological problems or psycho/medical problems such as alcoholism that may require other therapies, although Zen can be part of a 12-Step program or such (a few Zen teachers in America with a drinking problem had to seek outside help). My feeling is that some things are probably best handled by medical, psychological or psychiatric treatment, not Zen teachers.

My feeling is that receiving outside treatment, medication AND "just sitting" can all work together.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10274-Existential-Meltdowns&p=88359&viewfull=1#post88359

Gassho, J

[Mp]

Wonderful explanation Jundo ... thank you.

Gassho
Shingen

[Nameless]

Wonderful explanation Jundo ... thank you.

Agreed, thank you Jundo.

Gassho, John

[Jishin]

Jundo, I agree with your explanation 110%.

Gassho, Dr. John

[Joyo]

It's so hard to be patient with myself.

Gassho,
Ben

I'm so sorry, Ben, that you are struggling with patience towards yourself. I do not have ADD, but I do have a busy mind so I can understand, somewhat, what you are feeling. I would say, just continue on sitting, and show lots of metta to yourself, even if your mind is not working in such a way that you wish for it to. Just sit, with no expectations, sit with your racing mind, your confused and scattered mind. The clouds will be stubborn, that's ok, just sit with that. It may take a long time for those clouds to leave, like days, weeks, months, who knows, just sit with it and again, offer much metta to yourself

And now I"m reading what Jundo posted, and that is very good advice also.

Gassho,
Treena

[Dosho]

Hi all,

I agree with much of what Jundo has to say and ultimately he is suggesting that shikantaza may not be for everyone which is undoubtedly right on the mark. However, much of the literature on ADD back in the 1990s used to claim that finding a certain "flow" to life was not possible for people with ADD and depression. I never believed that then and do not now. It is a daily struggle, no doubt, and I still have trouble sitting at particular times. I nearly always have something going through my mind, but what I have learned is to not engage those thoughts in physical action. I once compared the ability to keep one's attention on a task to a river. For most people, this river is rather small and contained, making it a simple matter to move the water downstream. For those with ADD, however, there is more water flowing down the stream, actually allowing one to be hyper-focused at times. What then happens is that the water will overflow that "regular" river and as a result the person with ADD needs to find (or create) more places for the water to flow.

I believe in my heart that ADD is only a disability in modern times. In earlier periods of human history, people with ADD were wanders and explorers. They went into unknown lands, kept watch over others, and found ways to use their ability to expand our knowledge of the world. But in the here and now it can be difficult to keep up with the busy lives society has built for its citizens. That's where zazen can be helpful to some, but not all. For me, that society is very difficult to navigate and be fully engaged with in daily life. Sitting, while also very difficult, helped me find extra channels to divert that flood of attention by allowing it to flow around me without engaging the flood of thoughts. They are ALWAYS there. They never go away. It is so hard to let go. But I believe shikantaza can help by not trying to help. You don't look for solutions. You don't look for answers. They may never come! You can learn to just be with all that and let go of everything you are desperate to cling to.

I am only a priest in training and my experience with the dharma is limited, so I offer only possibilities that did help me. I cannot say with any authority that they will work for anyone else. But often all I needed was a little hope that things COULD get better. That was no guarantee that they WOULD get better, but could was good enough for me. Very early on I made one decision that helped me immensely: I did not know if sitting would ever make me enlightened, but I knew it would never happen if I went looking for it. So, to this day I don't. I just keep sitting and by not trying to help myself, I helped myself more than I could ever have imagined.

I hope these words are of some use to you Ben. But sitting is of no use whatsoever. And that is why it is such a wonderful gift.

Deep bows to you and your practice.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Yugen]

What a profound, insightful, and genuine post. Thank you Dosho for your presence here.

Deep bows
Yugen

[Tiwala]

Thank you everyone, for the kind advice.

But, I think I need some time for myself. I realized that the more instructions I seek, the more confused I get. I'll chime in when I feel like I get it. For now, I think I'll just sit again and again and again until I get it. I have no idea if there's really nothing to get, but that's really all I can conceive of right now- a something to get.

I felt like I'd been deluding myself, thinking I got it, but then I really don't. I just needed to let that out. Or let go. I don't know. I'm done with trying to sound zen. Or trying to be zen. Whatever. I hope you forgive this confused mess for using this place as his personal blog for his personal problems.
May all of us get it?

Question marks everywhere!

Gassho, Ben

[Kokuu]

Hi Ben

The conceiving of something to get is just a thought, or string of thoughts. You are right that advice only goes so far. Basically you just have to sit and the rest will take care of itself.

Do keep asking questions. Questions are fine. That is what we are here for. You will probably find that a lot of them resolve themselves through sitting itself and maybe even fall away.

Thank you for your practice. Sharing your problems with sitting is an act of generosity as there may be others here with similar issues who learn from the replies and are happy to know that others are experiencing the same. Also, for those who teach meditation, it is really helpful to know how a person with something like ADD experiences sitting.

Gassho
Andy

[Seiryu]

Thank you everyone, for the kind advice.

But, I think I need some time for myself. I realized that the more instructions I seek, the more confused I get. I'll chime in when I feel like I get it. For now, I think I'll just sit again and again and again until I get it. I have no idea if there's really nothing to get, but that's really all I can conceive of right now- a something to get.

I felt like I'd been deluding myself, thinking I got it, but then I really don't. I just needed to let that out. Or let go. I don't know. I'm done with trying to sound zen. Or trying to be zen. Whatever. I hope you forgive this confused mess for using this place as his personal blog for his personal problems.
May all of us get it?

Question marks everywhere!

Gassho, Ben

I know this space well. Like having something lodge in your throat and you can't spit it out. I have been to many centers, sat with many different teachers, in many different styles. Japanese Rinzai. Korean Rinzai, Soto Rinzai mix. Hindu Advaita Vedanta, just to name a few. I was convinced that I knew something. That I was a breath away from something. A moment away from something.
So I was looking. Trying to find that one teaching, that one expression, that one Thing that will make it all click. And you know what? It was exhausting. Every place I went had their own rules and very strong views about what is real practice, what is enlightenment, what is Truth, and according to them, I was doing something wrong. And, of course I believed them. And tried and tried. Then one day, I just couldn't go on. I realized, in tears actually, that I was fooling myself. I didn't know jack S**t. I didn't understand a single thing.
Everything I ever read, everything I ever heard was like water being poured into a cup with thousand and one holes in it.
I was tried of the spiritual games. The robes, the names, the whole show. Every place had different costumes it was like a never ending Halloween party. I just couldn't go on with the game.
In tears, and completely broken down, I decided to sit. And it was beautiful. I wasn't searching for anything. I didn't want anything. I just sat.
Just let the sitting take care of itself. When "I" is there searching, looking trying to get something, it causes so much unneeded suffering and struggles. But, in just one instant in which we can simply throw ourselves out. Throw away expectations, throw away ideas of what mediation should and should not give us, then we will be able to experience life as it is. Not as we want it. Not as we expect it. But as it is. The "Me" who is searching, who is struggling, who is trying to get something, that "I" that "Me" for one moment put it aside and see if any struggle remains. How is this moment before "you" say anything about it? How is that different from Now?

Please forgive these words. As I do not mean to tell anyone about what is practice and what is not practice. Just sharing some of my very insignificant experiences.


In Gassho

[Jundo]

I know this space well. Like having something lodge in your throat and you can't spit it out. I have been to many centers, sat with many different teachers, in many different styles. Japanese Rinzai. Korean Rinzai, Soto Rinzai mix. Hindu Advaita Vedanta, just to name a few. I was convinced that I knew something. That I was a breath away from something. A moment away from something.
So I was looking. Trying to find that one teaching, that one expression, that one Thing that will make it all click. And you know what? It was exhausting. Every place I went had their own rules and very strong views about what is real practice, what is enlightenment, what is Truth, and according to them, I was doing something wrong. And, of course I believed them. And tried and tried. Then one day, I just couldn't go on. I realized, in tears actually, that I was fooling myself. I didn't know jack S**t. I didn't understand a single thing.
Everything I ever read, everything I ever heard was like water being poured into a cup with thousand and one holes in it.
I was tried of the spiritual games. The robes, the names, the whole show. Every place had different costumes it was like a never ending Halloween party. I just couldn't go on with the game.
In tears, and completely broken down, I decided to sit. And it was beautiful. I wasn't searching for anything. I didn't want anything. I just sat.
Just let the sitting take care of itself. When "I" is there searching, looking trying to get something, it causes so much unneeded suffering and struggles. But, in just one instant in which we can simply throw ourselves out. Throw away expectations, throw away ideas of what mediation should and should not give us, then we will be able to experience life as it is. Not as we want it. Not as we expect it. But as it is. The "Me" who is searching, who is struggling, who is trying to get something, that "I" that "Me" for one moment put it aside and see if any struggle remains. How is this moment before "you" say anything about it? How is that different from Now?

Please forgive these words. As I do not mean to tell anyone about what is practice and what is not practice. Just sharing some of my very insignificant experiences.


In Gassho

Wow.

[Jinyo]

I know this space well. Like having something lodge in your throat and you can't spit it out. I have been to many centers, sat with many different teachers, in many different styles. Japanese Rinzai. Korean Rinzai, Soto Rinzai mix. Hindu Advaita Vedanta, just to name a few. I was convinced that I knew something. That I was a breath away from something. A moment away from something.
So I was looking. Trying to find that one teaching, that one expression, that one Thing that will make it all click. And you know what? It was exhausting. Every place I went had their own rules and very strong views about what is real practice, what is enlightenment, what is Truth, and according to them, I was doing something wrong. And, of course I believed them. And tried and tried. Then one day, I just couldn't go on. I realized, in tears actually, that I was fooling myself. I didn't know jack S**t. I didn't understand a single thing.
Everything I ever read, everything I ever heard was like water being poured into a cup with thousand and one holes in it.
I was tried of the spiritual games. The robes, the names, the whole show. Every place had different costumes it was like a never ending Halloween party. I just couldn't go on with the game.
In tears, and completely broken down, I decided to sit. And it was beautiful. I wasn't searching for anything. I didn't want anything. I just sat.
Just let the sitting take care of itself. When "I" is there searching, looking trying to get something, it causes so much unneeded suffering and struggles. But, in just one instant in which we can simply throw ourselves out. Throw away expectations, throw away ideas of what mediation should and should not give us, then we will be able to experience life as it is. Not as we want it. Not as we expect it. But as it is. The "Me" who is searching, who is struggling, who is trying to get something, that "I" that "Me" for one moment put it aside and see if any struggle remains. How is this moment before "you" say anything about it? How is that different from Now?

Please forgive these words. As I do not mean to tell anyone about what is practice and what is not practice. Just sharing some of my very insignificant experiences.


In Gassho

Seiryu - thank you for sharing.



Willow