The Cult of Self

[Ishin]

Thank you all for this interesting discussion.
Gassho
C

[William]

Greetings,

I'm looking forward to the discussion on refraining from discussing the faults of others. It's amazing how easily those thoughts creep up on us. Well, maybe it's just me, but I hope not.

I would like to see the page in question. I'm not that familiar with THH but I may do some googling here momentarily. As a general rule, I tend to consider Facebook a terrible source of information about almost everything.

Gassho

[Myozan Kodo]

Hi all,
The quotes come to my Facebook feed from Mindfulness Ireland. Look them up on FB.

In fact, I think TNH is a great teacher. I admire him greatly. I think his Dharma is somewhat misrepresented by many in the current Mindfulness, self-help movement. I just think what they do is fine. But it's misrepresenting things to present it as the Dharma. Just my opinion.

I can see how addressing issues of self-hatred and low self esteem (as said above) can be the awakening to the Way. How that is needed by many people. But if it stops there it is something other than the teachings of the Buddha. Still, if it helps people it is a good thing too.

I think our precepts do not require us to stop asking questions, by the way. I think we need to be judicious in our understanding of the precept not to criticise others. A restrictive reading of this precept can lead to an unhealthy, unquestioning attitude.

That's just my take. And remember, I am a trainee priest around here, not a great teacher like TNH!

Gassho
Myozan

PS: again, I am not saying this represents TNH's teachings (many of which I have read and admire.) Rather, the mindfulness movement that is inspired by him appears to be going in the direction I describe. They mash it all up through media like Facebook with self-help and inspiring, motivational stuff.

[Jinyo]

Hello everyone,

First off - I would like to thank Jundo for his measured response and in particular for drawing our attention to the precept of not discussing the faults of others. I also understand Myozan's point of view that we need to retain our critical faculties.

I think there's an interesting point about perception here though. I looked up the Ireland facebook page and scrolled quite a way through to get a feel for it. I gave it a like tick

In my personal view I can see nothing selfish/ self-obsessed or contra-Buddhism about the page. The page is inter-faith (one of Thay's strengths) and therefore not particularly buddhist. The posts draw from many teachers/sources.The 'I forgive Myself' quote is by Louis Hay - who has been writing about the human potential movement since the 80's. I liked the cheery picture of a clock face that has the caption 'make time for yourself'. Under one caption 'Memories never die' - there is a heartfelt discussion about dementia. The comments are far from cloying or self-obsessed - I spotted a lot of self-deprecation, irony and humour. I've read a lot of TNH's work and I honestly don't think he's misrepresented here at all.

The site has a message statement about mindfulness = 'to water positive seeds by sharing ...'

I actually felt uplifted by this site - how encouraging to think that thousands of people are starting their day by embracing some kind of positivity and trying to put that into their daily lives.

Gassho

Willow

[Kokuu]

Dear all

This is an interesting discussion and I am sure that many have concerns about some aspects of Buddhism becoming watered down or (to use a botanical metaphor) cross-pollinated that they scarcely represent the Buddhadharma at all but are presented as such.

Most people seem to come to Buddhism to help themselves. I have met few who are bodhisattvas from the word go. Several teachers have pointed out that the evolution from 'Hinayana' (a term I have never liked) to Mahayana motivation does not just occur in the history of Buddhism but in those who study it too. As we begin to look at the reasons for our own suffering and gain an insight into it, we realise that everyone else is suffering in the same way and want to do something about it. To my mind, this kind of entry level Buddhism is both useful in its own right and as a gateway into deeper teachings. Like Myozan, I can often react with concern about what is being presented as dharma but remember not so long ago when I was in need of developing kindness towards myself before I could do anything else.

Teachers such as Thich Nhat Hanh (HH Dalai Lama also fits into this category) who present the teachings at both a populist and deeper level are bound to run the risk of criticism of diminishing the dharma and presenting too many relative rather than absolute teachings. Is not engaged Buddhism about helping where you can, though, even (or maybe especially) when presenting higher teachings is inappropriate or counterproductive?

I don't like many of the self-focussed New Age teachings and worry when Buddhist teachers, or their students, stray into this territory but it is not for me to judge what is helpful to others. When people are going through stuff, if it helps them to move forward then I have only to believe it is a good thing. They may go on to study more serious Buddhist teachings or not. I just hope it makes them suffer a little less.

Gassho
Andy

[Taigu]

here it is, have a good read:

https://www.facebook.com/MindfulnessIreland

I quite agree with Myozan , this is a pretty pinky light golden lovely version of a would be Buddhism (New Age stuff with all the easy going motto) .

Nothing like the original teachings of the GREAT TNH.

a positive critical imput is a GREAT THING too.

gassho

T. (little T , for many years to come and centuries and hopefully, totally forgotten eventually)

[Taigu]

Andy,

Very clever post as always, and wise. Spot on.

[Jinyo]

Hi there,

This is my third edit on this post.

I'm gradually moving away from my original reaction of 'what does it matter if there's fluffy pics and motivational stuff on the site and why does that necessarily mean it's influenced by New Age?'

This is an interesting link to an article on the connection/differences between New Age belief/practice and Buddhism.

http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol1/new_age.html

I'm needing to re-think after reading this (but I still feel the site's Ok for those who are being helped by it and it does say the emphasis is Mindfullness - which doesn't claim to be purist and isn't necessarily pursued for selfish reasons).

Gassho

Willow

[sittingzen]

I know that Myozan offered his thoughts for a fruitful discussion, and Jundo reminds us about honoring the precepts if we are to walk the Path, and to use our best judgement when offering our thoughts on a delicate situation such as this.

We all, at one time or another, face the all too easy trap of elevating ourselves in our spiritual path, perhaps looking down or admonishing others that stray from the Path or one incompatible to our beliefs. I sure have. In times like this, I will remind myself to just sit and drop everything.

Gassho,

Lu

[Nengyo]

Very interesting read. Thank you all.

Ghasso,
Nengyo/Non-Nengyo

[Myozan Kodo]

Hi,
There is no elevating oneself above others here, as suggested above. On the contrary, the suggestion is that the self should not be placed above everything else.

We must engage with other sentient beings; move beyond our struggles with the self; re-enter the marketplace. Isn't that our way? Isn't it important not to lose that in the teachings as they are popularised and passed on?

I'm sure TNH would see it that way. My only fear is that this vital part of the Dharma be discarded in the Mindfulness movement which is gathering apace.

It is not finger pointing or contrary to the precepts to wish dearly that the Dharma isn't reduced to a self help technique only.

Don't read this as being high and mighty. I am merely expressing a point of view. I believe everyone is entitled to do that. Or should we not discuss, for fear that we cause offence?

Gassho
Myozan

[sittingzen]

Myozan,

For clarification, I speak in reference to ALL spiritual seekers, and not just Treeleafers. I have placed judgement, and also have been the recipient of judgement by spiritual seekers thinking "this way or the highway." "This is right, that is not right".

That is all.

Gassho,

Lu

[Myozan Kodo]

Hi Lu,
Thank you for your clarification.

Yes. Each to their own. We must respect that. But are all ways equal?

Gassho
Myozan

PS: I am a trainee, with no authority. I'm just a guy discussing. Don't take this as preaching or teaching!

[Jinyo]

Hello again,

I would like to come back to this thread because I've realised it's provoked quite a strong reaction in me. If you can bear with me I'd like to explain why.

After reading the article I linked to above I do understand a little more that there is some kind of dialogue between Buddhism and New Age philosophy, and in more recent times a distancing between the two. I can see this is a useful discussion and that for anyone trying to find their way into Buddhism it is probably helpful to have some awareness of this.

Having said that - over the past almost two years of being a member here - I can't help but notice that there is a tension around the Mindfulness movement that feels out of kilter with what I understand about it. Now I am quite happy to be corrected on this if my understanding is lacking or incomplete.

I have never seen Mindfulness presented as 'the Dharma' - though many practitioners are Buddhists. The most a practitioner might say/teach is that Mindfulness is inspired by Buddhism, reflects buddhist principles, etc. The parallels are drawn - the inspiration is evident - but I don't understand where the fear comes from that what we understand as the Dharma will be reduced to a self-help technique?

The whole point of the Mindfulness movement is that it is secular. I can however see that someone might be drawn to the more populist teachings of TNH on minfulness and draw the conclusion from that that they have become a buddhist. I can also see that the facebook site might be interpreted that way. But I don't surmise from that that the Dharma will be reduced to a self-help technique, because the Dharma can't actually be reduced. Sure - there might be a shift in semantics - but that doesn't have to result in a reduction in the amount of compassionate or loving energy put out into the world. There may well be an increase. I think TNH andthe Dalai Lama are aware of this. I feel they're true to the spirit of buddhism in recognising that people have different abilities in what they can take in and commit to.

I might be wrong but I reckon if you asked TNH what he thought of the facebook site he'd say - it's really fine - it's all good.

Gassho

Willow

[Daitetsu]

Hi there!

What an interesting thread, thank you so much!
First of all, I would not throw TNH into the same pot as the secular Mindfulness Movement. I don't want to say, that anybody claimed that, but we must be careful.
Anyone delving into TNH's books will soon find out that he offers real Buddhist teachings - not watered down, but more accesible.
The secular Mindfulness Movement has a whole different "tone" (not meant in a negative way!).

I agree with Willow, I don't consider the Mindfulness Movement as watered down Buddhism, because it does not claim to be a Dharma teaching/Buddhism in the first place! It just says it's Mindfulness Training or something similar.
Neither do I consider it as a "competition" to Buddhism.

A friend of mine practices several "secular" Meditation techniques. He does not consider them Buddhist in any way. When I told him that some of his practices are obviously influenced by Buddhist practices, he was surprised.

So my basic opinion is, when someone seeks Dharma, they won't look for it at the Mindfulness Movement anyway, because it does not present itself as Dharma in the first place.
Furthermore, I would not describe one thing to be "better" than the other. I see it on an individual, personal level.
For some people the Mindfulness Movement might be better suited, for others a Buddhist practice. And don't forget all those people who start with a secular practice and move on to the Dharma later on (I bet a lot!).

To each their own, I say, nothing "better", nothing "worse" in an absolute way, just on a relative, individual level.

Gassho,

Timo