The Cult of Self

[kidbuda]

Yea! real interesting post and discussion. Nothing to add, gonna keep reading.

Gassho.

kb

I stumbled upon this quote this morning and thought it appropriate.

"Whatever the teaching may be, the teaching confronts each in accordance with the circumstances."-Shunryu Suzuki

,

lu

Wonderful Lu, thank you.

Gassho
Shingen

[Taigu]

That"s the real deal, Lu.

And the beginning of acceptance.

gassho

T.

[sittingzen]

I stumbled upon this quote this morning and thought it appropriate.

"Whatever the teaching may be, the teaching confronts each in accordance with the circumstances."-Shunryu Suzuki

,

lu

[Hans]

Hello Willow,

I agree, we are never in a position to know what's happening inside another human being. If something seems odd in any way to us, we can use this to reflect on our own practise depth, which is never deep enough.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jinyo]

Thank you Hans - it is clear that what you feel comes from the heart and not just the mind.

I was also thinking to myself last night that a Priest or novice Priest in training would naturally feel very strongly about this issue because the essence of vocation is to preserve and pass on the Dharma intact.

However - the central point of this thread for me is about not being too hasty in our judgement of others. I would also caution against the assumption that we are ever really in a position to know what defines a radical place of change in the life of another human being. How could we possibly know this?

Otherwise we're in danger of adopting a holier than thou position - and that's the very reason I was relieved to leave the religion I grew up with behind. I saw, growing up, how kindness and good intention can so easily slip into a fundamentalism that clouds one's judgement - and induces judgemental attitudes.

I look deeply into my own heart regarding this - because we all have this tendency. It is a tendency I feel I need to work on daily.

I also feel I need to say (again ) Mindfulness is not just a bunch of breathing exercises.

... and that's enough words on this subject from me.

Gassho

Willow

[Hans]

Hello,

a fascinating thread indeed. Once we agree on the fact that people are different and have different needs, discussions like these are not half as controversial as they might seem to be.

To me personally Buddhadharma has to lead to radical places, uncomfortable places which may induce radical changes in one's life (or may not), or IMHO it's not Dharma but something else.

People literally died to make sure the Dharma survived into the 21st century, I am not so sure the same commitment and passion is even wanted with regards to a lot of dharma derived practices.

A great river may branch into many little streams that may in turn create beautiful landscapes full of life and wonder, but if we don't guard the river (and polish one another's living understanding of what this river of Dharma is), one of these days all that will be left is a dry river bed and some faded Eckhart Tolle pages.

Maybe this whole topic might also be emotionally different for people who have become ordained (or feel the same kind of calling inside - it's not about a ceremony), because it is our job to make sure the Dharma survives with its full strength intact.

We need self-help techniques, we need positive affirmations, we need gentle approaches to lead us to the source of this river, but Shakyamuni didn't leave his family and thousands of ancestors did not leave their "normal" lives behind for a bunch of breathing exercises.

Now, if I believed one has to leave normal life behind in a structural sense, I'd be writing this from an Asian monastery. I believe we can walk the whole of the path in this life , where we are right now. I also feel that if we are not prepared to potentially face a radical and even scary re-appreciation of what our lives might be about, we are not truly surrendering to things as they are.


Just my two cents.


Gassho,


Hans Chudo Mongen

Jundo, I totally agree with everything that you said. And, I know, for myself, I am in the middle of a Heart (sutra) transplant, and Treeleaf is the only place that has provided me the necessary means to do that. It has been very, very painful, and yet, necessary. Zen Buddhism, with it's teachings on mindfulness, impermanence, equanimity etc. etc. really has saved my life in so many ways. I have witnessed a lot of ppl looking for the aspirin, because it is easier and quickly reduces pain. But, Zen, it can be painful sometimes, and beautiful, and just all that it is. But I wouldn't have it any other way.

Gassho,
Treena

[Jundo]

Different Paths suit different feet: A "Mindfulness" program stripped of many Buddhist Teachings and focused on stress reduction is fine for some, sitting Shikantaza is right for some, Koan Centered Zazen or Praying to Jesus or Amida are right for some, something else is right for some. All good. Some folks just need to relax and learn a touch of Compassion, and that is all they want or seek.

I have nothing against the "Mindfulness Movement". It is only that, for some students, I think it a shame that they are being handed an aspirin or a cold ice pack, which is mildly comforting I suppose, but what they truly require is a Heart (Sutra) Transplant. A little relaxation or "stress reduction" is fine I suppose, but how sad that the True Power of the Way is missed when one fails to Pierce the Traditional Teachings such as Impermanence, Non-Self, Dukkha and its causes, the Precepts and all the rest. (Another concern, pointed out recently by David Loy and others, is that meditation is being kidnapped by corporations to "reduce stress" all the better to make passive, compliant and over-worked employees, by the military to make better and more cold hearted killers and the like).

While a stripped-down, secularized technique -- what some critics are now calling "McMindfulness" -- may make it more palatable to the corporate world, decontextualizing mindfulness from its original liberative and transformative purpose, as well as its foundation in social ethics, amounts to a Faustian bargain. Rather than applying mindfulness as a means to awaken individuals and organizations from the unwholesome roots of greed, ill will and delusion, it is usually being refashioned into a banal, therapeutic, self-help technique that can actually reinforce those roots.

...

The result is an atomized and highly privatized version of mindfulness practice, which is easily coopted and confined to what Jeremy Carrette and Richard King, in their book Selling Spirituality: The Silent Takeover of Religion, describe as an "accommodationist" orientation. Mindfulness training has wide appeal because it has become a trendy method for subduing employee unrest, promoting a tacit acceptance of the status quo, and as an instrumental tool for keeping attention focused on institutional goals.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ron-pu...b_3519289.html

Let me mention that I see nothing wrong ... and it being perfectly justified ... to constructively critique and criticize even other Buddhists. In fact, it is necessary! I do so (I am doing so in the very post!) How else does one teach "good paths" from not so good paths? I think Myozan's original post was so, if anyone things I am saying otherwise. It is just that the Precept on "Not Criticizing Others" reminds all of us that we must stay constructive and remember that different patients need different medicine. It is too easy for criticism of another's faults to turn into blindness of our own, and so must be very cautious and humble in doing so.

Gassho, Jundo

[Seiryu]

Different people. Different expressions. Not the words, what the words point to....

For many who follow TNH, post such as these are the only fragrance of teachings they get, maybe its all they need. Maybe it will push them deeper. Maybe it won't. Who knows.


just my ramblings,

I am just me. A nobody. I only know my zafu with certainty _/\_

Deep Gassho, friend;

Lu

Ahhh, yes, I can agree with this for sure, just trying to walk a humble path while being aware that we are all going up the same mountain, just following different paths.

Gassho,
Treena

[sittingzen]

Myozan,

Who am I to judge the path of an aspirant? I am just me. A nobody. I only know my zafu with certainty _/\_

Deep Gassho, friend;

Lu

[Daitetsu]

Hi there!

What an interesting thread, thank you so much!
First of all, I would not throw TNH into the same pot as the secular Mindfulness Movement. I don't want to say, that anybody claimed that, but we must be careful.
Anyone delving into TNH's books will soon find out that he offers real Buddhist teachings - not watered down, but more accesible.
The secular Mindfulness Movement has a whole different "tone" (not meant in a negative way!).

I agree with Willow, I don't consider the Mindfulness Movement as watered down Buddhism, because it does not claim to be a Dharma teaching/Buddhism in the first place! It just says it's Mindfulness Training or something similar.
Neither do I consider it as a "competition" to Buddhism.

A friend of mine practices several "secular" Meditation techniques. He does not consider them Buddhist in any way. When I told him that some of his practices are obviously influenced by Buddhist practices, he was surprised.

So my basic opinion is, when someone seeks Dharma, they won't look for it at the Mindfulness Movement anyway, because it does not present itself as Dharma in the first place.
Furthermore, I would not describe one thing to be "better" than the other. I see it on an individual, personal level.
For some people the Mindfulness Movement might be better suited, for others a Buddhist practice. And don't forget all those people who start with a secular practice and move on to the Dharma later on (I bet a lot!).

To each their own, I say, nothing "better", nothing "worse" in an absolute way, just on a relative, individual level.

Gassho,

Timo

[Jinyo]

Hello again,

I would like to come back to this thread because I've realised it's provoked quite a strong reaction in me. If you can bear with me I'd like to explain why.

After reading the article I linked to above I do understand a little more that there is some kind of dialogue between Buddhism and New Age philosophy, and in more recent times a distancing between the two. I can see this is a useful discussion and that for anyone trying to find their way into Buddhism it is probably helpful to have some awareness of this.

Having said that - over the past almost two years of being a member here - I can't help but notice that there is a tension around the Mindfulness movement that feels out of kilter with what I understand about it. Now I am quite happy to be corrected on this if my understanding is lacking or incomplete.

I have never seen Mindfulness presented as 'the Dharma' - though many practitioners are Buddhists. The most a practitioner might say/teach is that Mindfulness is inspired by Buddhism, reflects buddhist principles, etc. The parallels are drawn - the inspiration is evident - but I don't understand where the fear comes from that what we understand as the Dharma will be reduced to a self-help technique?

The whole point of the Mindfulness movement is that it is secular. I can however see that someone might be drawn to the more populist teachings of TNH on minfulness and draw the conclusion from that that they have become a buddhist. I can also see that the facebook site might be interpreted that way. But I don't surmise from that that the Dharma will be reduced to a self-help technique, because the Dharma can't actually be reduced. Sure - there might be a shift in semantics - but that doesn't have to result in a reduction in the amount of compassionate or loving energy put out into the world. There may well be an increase. I think TNH andthe Dalai Lama are aware of this. I feel they're true to the spirit of buddhism in recognising that people have different abilities in what they can take in and commit to.

I might be wrong but I reckon if you asked TNH what he thought of the facebook site he'd say - it's really fine - it's all good.

Gassho

Willow

[Myozan Kodo]

Hi Lu,
Thank you for your clarification.

Yes. Each to their own. We must respect that. But are all ways equal?

Gassho
Myozan

PS: I am a trainee, with no authority. I'm just a guy discussing. Don't take this as preaching or teaching!