Why do you practice Zen?

[Shonin]

LOL

Dave _/\_

[Myoshin]

I must confess sometimes I sit to become enlightened some day, and some days I realise that realisation is not a point to reach, the point is reached here and now, not once, but forever:as Dogen suggests in the Genjokoan(IMHO) "this no trace continues endlessly " is when we actualise moment after moment without appropriate one realisation by the ego "no traces of realisation remain" . I would prefer to use actualise rather than reached in this last case. to fall into the illusion of reaching enlightenment is spiritual materialism. Even after years of practice.

I may be wrong about Dogen, caution it's just a tought who will be corrected by our teachers

Gassho

Myoshin

[Shonin]

A good thought though. I liked it anyways but I'm just a dude. Whether interpreting Dogen correctly or not, I couldn't say. But I especially like the thought about actualization vs. reaching. Just sit and all things fall into place.
Dave _/\_

[Jundo]

A good thought though. I liked it anyways but I'm just a dude. Whether interpreting Dogen correctly or not, I couldn't say. But I especially like the thought about actualization vs. reaching. Just sit and all things fall into place.
Dave _/\_

Actualizing ... reaching ... All words. I like to say that one realizes (pierces what cannot be pierced) and realizes (makes real in living life) this non-realization. More words.

We reach ... partly by realizing that there is no place to get or ever in need of getting (that there was nothing apart to "get", nobody apart to "get it"), partly by walking the road which is ever under foot and without beginning or end.

I just posted this today, to a statement that our Way is not about kensho-satori-enlightenment. The comment was made ...

But forget about Kensho/Satori/Enlightenment/etc. This practice is not about these things.
Perhaps for Rinzai practitioners.
Maybe you might check out the stuff from Kodo Sawaki...

to which I said ...

---------------------------------

HUH!?! Where did this come from?

I believe you confuse our "not chasing after, radically giving up the hunt" with "not finding". Who said that our Way ain't about Kensho-Satori-Enlightenment? Certainly not Kodo.

Here, please, carve this in your bones ...

Who ever said that there is "nothing to find" in, through and as this practice of "not seeking", no place to "get", no treasure to snare at the end of the rainbow?

Not me. I never would say such a thing. Then why pursue this path?

Who ever said there is no "enlightenment" to be achieved? I never would say that. It would not be Buddhism in that case.

More here ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7461-How-to-attain-enlightenment

Gassho, J

[Neo]

there's only one main reason, one main teacher, suffering...

First, I'm on the same path as buddha once was, searching for answers, for something to make sense, why do we live if it's all about suffering. Second, buddhism/zen seems like the best system to describe reality as true as possible, of everything that I have stumbled by so far in my life. And why the zen tradition. It feels like zen is at the core of the dharma teachings, striped off everything unnecessary.

[Jundo]

A couple of Kodo Sawaki quotes on Satori ...

We don’t practice in order to get satori. It’s satori that pulls our practice. We practice, being dragged all over by satori.

You don’t seek the way. The way seeks you.

You study, you do sports, and you’re fixated on satori and illusion. So that even zazen becomes a marathon for you, with satori as the finish line. Yet because you’re trying to grab it, you’re missing it completely.

Only when you stop meddling like this does your original, cosmic nature realize itself.

You say you’re seeking the way, but what does it mean if you’re seeking the way just to satisfy yourself?

You want to become a buddha? There’s no need to become a buddha! Now is simply now. You are simply you. And tell me, since you want to leave the place where you are,where is it exactly you want to go?

Zazen means just sitting without even thinking of becoming buddha.

We don’t achieve satori through practice: practice is satori. Each and every step is the goal.

Don’t take pride in your practice. It’s clear that any satori you take pride in is a lie.

You’ve got it backwards if you talk about stages of practice. Practice is satori.

Satori is like a thief breaking into an empty house. He breaks in but there’s nothing to steal. No reason to flee. No one who chases him. So there’s nothing which could satisfy him either.

The buddha-dharma is immeasurable and unlimited. How could it ever have been made to fit into your categories.

No matter what you are grasping for, it’s limited.

In any case, only things for ordinary people can be grasped. Grasping for money, clinging to health, being attached to position and title, grasping for satori – everything you grasp only becomes the property of an ordinary person. Letting go of ordinary people’s property – that’s what it means to be a buddha.

When peace of mind only means your personal satisfaction, then it’s got nothing to do with the buddha-dharma.

The buddha-dharma teaches limitlessness. That which is measureless has to be accepted without complaint.

You lack peace of mind because you’re running after an idea of total peace of mind. That’s backwards. Be attentive to your mind in each moment, no matter how unpeaceful it might seem to be. Great peace of mind is realized only in the practice within this unpeaceful mind. It arises out of the interplay between peaceful and unpeaceful mind.

A peace of mind that is totally at peace would be nothing more than something ready made. Real peace of mind only exists within unpeaceful mind.

When dissatisfaction is finally accepted as dissatisfaction, peace of mind reigns. It’s the mind of a person who had been deaf to criticism when he finally listens to others talking about his mistakes. It’s the mind of a person who, naked and begging for his life, suddenly dies peacefully. It’s the mind of a person who has suddenly lost the beggar who had been pulling at his sleeve, relentlessly following him around everywhere,. It’s the mind after the flood in which the make-up of piety has washed away.

How could a human being ever have peace of mind? The real question is what you’re doing with this human life. What you’re doing with this stinking sack of flesh, that’s the issue.

http://antaiji.dogen-zen.de/eng/kodo-sawaki-to-you.shtml

[Mp]

Those Sawaki quotes are great Jundo, thank you.

Gassho
Shingen

[Shonin]

Thanks for the clarification , Jundo.

Dave _/\_

[shikantazen]

I do zazen because i get zazen hungry twice a day. when i started i had wants; things that i wanted out of my sittings. now my sitting itself has become a need

[Amelia]

Good to see, shikantazen.

[Jinyo]

Wonderful quotes - such clarity.

Gassho

Willow

[Kyonin]

Sawaki Roshi is always so honest and direct.

He always hit me in the head like a speeding truck.

Thank you for the quotes.

Kyonin

[Oheso]

I do zazen because i get zazen hungry twice a day. when i started i had wants; things that i wanted out of my sittings. now my sitting itself has become a need

this is wonderfully said and I believe is descriptive of my experience also. so often between actual sittings I find myself to have lapsed into my resolute Mr. Self, fearless in expression.

who needs to sit?

[Hans]

Hello,

the next time someone asks me why I sit Shikantaza, I'll probably just stay silent and link to the following video:

One could say I sit to become ever more intimate and at ease with that non-place whence happiness and sadness come from. Which is everywhere and always, beyond space and beyond time. HERE, inside and behind the eyes that read this.


Gassho,


Hans Chudo Mongen

[Oheso]

that non-place whence happiness and sadness come from

gassho

Rob