Zen and Psychology

[Jinyo]

I am a graduate student and practicing psychologist. I think some of your points, Nameless, are well made. However, the art and science of psychotherapy are always changing, and most psychologists that I know, read, and work with do not consider people "victims of a rigid psyche" or anything like that. I see a lot of overlap between Buddhism in general and Psychology.

You might be interested in the works of Stephen Hayes, one of the pioneers of integrating meditation and mindfulness into psychotherapy.

One cautionary point that I would make, is that clinical psychology is a SCIENCE as well as a method for treating mental illness and/or promoting human flourishing. We don't have the luxury of exclusively applying our own personal experiences, powers of reason, or religious beliefs when working with individuals. To some extent these things must have some empirical basis. That's what makes the work of Hayes and others so exciting. However, it also means we have to put our money where our mouths are in terms of completing well-designed research studies if we are going to claim that Buddhism can heal all psychological issues.

Just mulling this over. I read Russ Harris's 'The Happiness Trap' (forward by Steven Hayes) recently - because a relative is beginning her training as an ACT therapist and I was interested to find out more of this approach.

I liked this book very much because it was very clear and concise and also because it was clearly presented as secular. Jon Kabat-Zinn walks a closer line between buddhism and mindfullness training. I do feel that all of this takes very positively from buddhism in a way that is acceptable for those who do not have a need for the spiritual aspect.

But I can't help feeling the spiritual aspect is key - and if buddhism alignes too closely with the rigours of empirical science that key aspect may get lost?

Just thinking ..........................

Gassho

Willow

[lordbd]

Just mulling this over. I read Russ Harris's 'The Happiness Trap' (forward by Steven Hayes) recently - because a relative is beginning her training as an ACT therapist and I was interested to find out more of this approach.

I liked this book very much because it was very clear and concise and also because it was clearly presented as secular. Jon Kabat-Zinn walks a closer line between buddhism and mindfullness training. I do feel that all of this takes very positively from buddhism in a way that is acceptable for those who do not have a need for the spiritual aspect.

But I can't help feeling the spiritual aspect is key - and if buddhism alignes too closely with the rigours of empirical science that key aspect may get lost?

Just thinking ..........................

Gassho

Willow

I agree with you Willow, and I think it is a complicated spectrum of issues as you said (not just Buddhist v. Nonbuddhist). I think that clinical psychology has benefitted and will benefit from stealing concepts and practices like a bandit from Buddhist traditions. After all, there is the shared goal of reducing suffering. But the larger spiritual aspect may be lost, and I think that that's okay too. One thing I'm learning in my on-the-job therapy training is that a therapist needs to be mindful of 1) where their competencies lie and 2) what the boundaries of their job are. The same goes for a religious leader of spiritual teacher. A good therapist can use certain treatments based on Buddhist thought to help those who are struggling with emotional issues and leave the larger spiritual questions to spiritual teachers. A spiritual teacher can help someone in their practice or to follow a spiritual path, but feel comfortable suggesting a mental health professional if psychological issues are present.

I read an article on sweeping zen about how Buddhist practitioners can strive to have "two specialties," zazen and something else (sewing; food preparation; chanting; koans). Having formal training in psychological counseling from a Buddhist perspective, and being licensed (like yourself) perhaps means that your second specialty is in treating Buddhists who are struggling with psychological issues. I am of the bias, however, that not every spiritual teacher should feel confident or comfortable in treating psychological problems.

[Jundo]

Hi,

My main concern about many forms of "mindfulness" and other like meditation courses and therapies stripped of their Buddhist elements is that they miss the real "powerhouse" medicine this Way has to offer, to wit, such teachings (and embodying of) "non-self" "emptiness" "Dukkha/the Four Noble Truths" "impermanence" the Precepts and Bodhisattva Vows and the like.

Without allowing someone to fully transcend the small "self", and to truly embody "emptiness", meditation is often little more than a relaxation technique or watered down medicine.

David Loy and Ron Purser had some additional criticisms of the "mindfulness" movement in a recent essay ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ron-purser/beyond-mcmindfulness_b_3519289.html

Gassho, J

[Mp]

Thank you everyone for some great insight ... I have really enjoyed this thread.

Gassho
Shingen

[Kyonin]

Just to add my two cents with the point of view of someone who lacks both wisdom and knowledge...

I think psychology works like modern medicine in the way that it tries to fix things when it's all messed up.

I come to this realization because in what little I have seen, people go to see a professional whenever they are up to the neck in depression or mental issues.

Don't get me wrong, this is fantastic because I know for experience that a good professional is great help and often heals the mind. Years ago I was depressed and dealing with family issues. Thanks to my psychologist, I was able to sort it all out and make good decisions when needed.

Buddhist practice, in the other hand, gives you a framework to live by so you prevent mental issues and have a whole and peaceful life.

Please note that I say mental, not biochemical or neurological issues. That's a complete different thing that should be addressed by psychiatrists.

But then again, I know nothing about psychology.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Ishin]

You don't lack wisdom Kyonin, though you may have no knowledge of it
Gassho
C

[Nameless]

Thank you all for your responses in this thread! It's true that Buddhist influenced psychology may lack the "powerhouse" that's within the core teachings. Mindfulness training alone is inspired by Zen, but definitely lacks the depth of practice. Another trick for a psychologist or counselor who is Buddhist could be to implement Buddhist concepts without stepping on the client's own spiritual views. Like giving a someone medicine hidden in food haha. Is that disingenuous? Kinda sorta. That brings up the question: should someone present Buddhist views without the underlying history and terminology to others in general? Such as bringing up the Four Noble Truths without calling them that or touching on the aspect of freedom from rebirth through enlightenment?

Gassho, John

[Jundo]

That brings up the question: should someone present Buddhist views without the underlying history and terminology to others in general? Such as bringing up the Four Noble Truths without calling them that or touching on the aspect of freedom from rebirth through enlightenment?

Gassho, John

I think it is okay. The reason is not meant to deceive anyone. Rather, it is that many of the Buddhist Teachings and insights, such as the Four Noble Truths, Emptiness, Impermanence, Etc., can carry their own weight without being associated with any particular group, religion or philosopher, etc.

It is a bit like saying that the "Golden Rule" (Do Unto Others ...) can stand on its own non-religious, secular legs even though it is found in the Bible, was professed by many religious thinkers.

Gassho, J

[lordbd]

Jundo I agree wholeheartedly. I find one of the most exciting parts of Zen practice is that it arose from an observation of life and how the mind (subjectively) seems to function. So many of the truths can really resonate for patients without any need for acceptance of a buddhist religious point of view.

For example, negative and self-defeating thoughts and beliefs often underlie depression and anger issues. What a wonderful thing to learn, that thoughts really are just THINGS and they zip in and out of their own accord without any need to hold onto or act on them.

[Daisho]

This is a great thread that offers lots of food for thought! I think a therapist that can help to deepen one's insight into self and then encourage change is a treasure to find. I've sat on both chairs and from experience have seen several modalities of treatment work.

Personally, I spent several years, off and on, seeing a therapist who guided me around the block from events and people in my childhood that certainly did affect what happened in my adult life, and understanding that has helped me enormously in emotional and spiritual growth. Like Clark, I believe the mental, physical and spiritual aspects are all tied together. Plus, look where it's all led me: TREELEAF!

Oh, and I do need to set the record straight. Unlike some, who seem to believe psychobabble comes from and resides in California, it just ain't so. It's in all 50 states, the UK and every coffeehouse in the world.

[Joyo]

Buddhist practice, in the other hand, gives you a framework to live by so you prevent mental issues and have a whole and peaceful life.

That is very smart, Kyonin. Speaking from my own personal experience, it is true. The more it can be prevented the better.

Gassho,
Treena

[lordbd]

Buddhist practice, in the other hand, gives you a framework to live by so you prevent mental issues and have a whole and peaceful life.

That is very smart, Kyonin. Speaking from my own personal experience, it is true. The more it can be prevented the better.

Gassho,
Treena

I feel strongly about this. Whether or not psychotherapy and the science of psychology is more appropriate for certain psychological problems or not, there isn't enough focus on LIFESTYLE and PREVENTION and THRIVING. These are some of the fruits of good buddhist practice maybe?

[Rich]

No fruit, just the patience to be with the suffering of this world.

[lordbd]

Thank you Rich,

That concept is still elusive to me. I understand it, but I also do not understand it.

[Rich]

Thank you Rich,

That concept is still elusive to me. I understand it, but I also do not understand it.

by sitting you have already demonstrated a lot of patience. -)