Zen and Psychology

[Nameless]

Before I read Robert Aitken's, "The Path of Zen," diving into ancient Sutras, and finally joining the Sangha, I was a very cynical and intellectually driven man. The human mind has always fascinated me (probably stemming from trying to understand myself initially) and psychology was the only study in college that called to me. I learned a lot from all the classes, but I always sensed that something critical was missing. Practicing Zen, I uncovered these missing pieces.

Psychology has gotten a bit more light-hearted over the years, with the introduction of Positive Psychology and other schools, but many perspectives still paint the individual as a victim who has no choice regarding who they are. Whether who we are is influenced by our genes, conditioning or other environmental aspects, we are subject to our rigid psyches. That... is... nonsense. Psychologists attempt to ease the suffering of others through therapy and medication, but they fail to see and express the root causes of suffering and dissatisfaction in general. Clients could really benefit from study, discourse and meditation instead. They convince people that there is something "wrong" with them, that the behavior and underlying thoughts must be "corrected." This presents some kind of future ideal of who a person will be, rather than working with the here and now.

Present moment awareness, the Four Noble Truths, the Three Marks of Existence, the Eightfold Path and the Twelve Links of Dependent Origination fit snug with psychology and if implemented in the mental health field they could benefit many. To sum it up, Dukkha is the root of determining mental health.

Gassho, John

[Jundo]

I believe, John, that there are many Zen Teachers who are also licensed psychologists and therapists of various kinds, and a whole bunch of folks are trying to do so. There are dozens of folks that come to mind in fact, many students of Joko Beck for example.

I cannot tell you how much they are succeeding in the mix (sometimes I feel that the result is that the Buddhism gets lost in a bunch of California psycho-babble with many of these folks), but some good things might come from the mix.

Here is one such fellow ...Barry Magid ...

http://www.amazon.com/Ending-Pursuit-Happiness-Zen-Guide/dp/0861715535/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I do not know this next fellow at all, so have no comment. He seems more on the Koan Zazen side as he is a student of Aitken Roshi ...

http://sweepingzen.com/joseph-bobrow-interview/

There are many others these days.

Gassho, J

[Shokai]

I think you are on to something there John; now, just sit with it

gassho,

[Kokuu]

Friend John,

I recognise some of the trait of psychologists you paint but it does seem to rather sway into the negative. Psychology and dharma have two distinct, but overlapping, goals.

Psychology aims to help people understand behaviours that are interfering with their ability to live life and return them to 'normal' functioning' Dharma, on the other hand, takes 'normal functioning' people and removes the extraeneous suffering.

The overlap occurs at the end of psychology with minor neuroses. They will often use tools we would recognise from the dharma such as impermanence and the lack of absolute reality of thoughts to help people with mild to moderate worries. Try teaching meditation to a moderately to severely depressed or neurotic person, though, and it can be harmful to expose them even more to their thoughts and inner world.

If someone is so neurotic that their behaviour is affecting their life then should not a psychologist suggest 'corrections' to this behaviour to return their life to functioning such as the case of OCD? The patient is the one who comes to them because they feel something is wrong with them. Psychologists know about the normal 'worried well' and any good practitioner will not convince a healthy person they are ill. I have never heard psychology describe the psyche as rigid (in that case, what point therapy?) but we are products of our environment and genes just as Buddhism holds us to be by karma.

I don't at all believe your last sentence to be universally true. Childhood trauma and later events can skew perception to such a degree that counselling and psychotherapy may be a necessary step before even setting foot in the world of the dharma. I do, however, agree that certain Buddhist ideas can add to the therapeutic armoury and this is already in progress. As well as actual Buddhist psychologists, mindfulness (MBSR and MBCT) incorporates ideas from the dharma and I am sure more is to follow. How well this is done is an open question but psychologists are not averse to taking ideas that help patients and I have met dozens of psychologists and counsellors on retreats and in dharma groups looking to better understand why people suffer.

Gassho
Andy (whose ex-wife is a clinical psychologist and Theravadin Buddhist)

[lordbd]

I am a graduate student and practicing psychologist. I think some of your points, Nameless, are well made. However, the art and science of psychotherapy are always changing, and most psychologists that I know, read, and work with do not consider people "victims of a rigid psyche" or anything like that. I see a lot of overlap between Buddhism in general and Psychology.

You might be interested in the works of Stephen Hayes, one of the pioneers of integrating meditation and mindfulness into psychotherapy.

One cautionary point that I would make, is that clinical psychology is a SCIENCE as well as a method for treating mental illness and/or promoting human flourishing. We don't have the luxury of exclusively applying our own personal experiences, powers of reason, or religious beliefs when working with individuals. To some extent these things must have some empirical basis. That's what makes the work of Hayes and others so exciting. However, it also means we have to put our money where our mouths are in terms of completing well-designed research studies if we are going to claim that Buddhism can heal all psychological issues.

[Ishin]

Hi Interesting conversation.

As a practicing Doctor of Oriental Medicine I would just also like to add, that there is a tendency to think of things from a very myopic view in Western terms. In Oriental Medicine we would not likely separate mental health from overall health. Everything is interconnected. Not just within the body, but without as well. Diet, climate, pathogens, seasons, astrology, for example all come into play. From the traditional perspective you cannot really separate the trees from the forest. If your system is not balanced that would definitely affect your mental outlook as well. That being said, I don't want to come off being "new agey". Oriental Medicine is OLD agey. There are many self promoting health gurus out there who are trying to suggest that all health issues are spiritual or mentally based. The Mind and spirit can definitely affect the health of the body, but the converse is ALSO true. It is ALL inter-related. For example, if one experiences a deep sense of loss from say the passing away of a loved one,and they can't let it go they may very well end up having problems with their large intestine. In this situation Zen practice would be highly beneficial. On the other hand a person who has some type of phyisical intestinal disorder might be more prone to hoarding behavior because they literally and figuratively can not let it go.

Gassho
C

[lordbd]

Clark,

No wisdom to share here, I just wanted to say that I like your post and where you are coming from, especially the point about the link between the GI systems and major life stressors. I'm training as a Clinical Health Psychologist and I think that the whole new initiative in healthcare to provide "medical homes" and "integrated care" is basically us remembering that there was a time when health was handled holistically.

[Juki]

Psychology aims to help people understand behaviours that are interfering with their ability to live life and return them to 'normal' functioning' Dharma, on the other hand, takes 'normal functioning' people and removes the extraeneous suffering.

I like this, Andy. It reminds me of the old quote attributed to Freud, which I shall paraphrase because I cannot remember it exactly: "the point of psychotherapy is to take someone's abject misery and turn it into ordinary, everyday suffering."

So, the Dharma transcends psycotherapy, but psychotherapy gets one to a place where they can appreciate the Dharma. Maybe?

Gassho,
William

[Jinyo]

I would just like to add John that there are as many schools/orientations in Psychology/Psychotherapy as in Buddhism in general.

I do recognise some of what you say in CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) although that is the form of therapy most aligned to mindful meditation in the UK.

I do believe that the relationship between Zen and psychotherapy is a fruitful one and that each path can enrich the other.

I have Joseph Bobrow's book but haven't had the chance to read it. It has a lot of acclaim. As to California psycho-babble - that sort of talk tends to come out of the mouths and pens of those who haven't put their training in but present as therapists. It is very off putting and misleading.

Being a trained integrative psychotherapist I am of course biased

Gassho

Willow

[Nameless]

I believe, John, that there are many Zen Teachers who are also licensed psychologists and therapists of various kinds, and a whole bunch of folks are trying to do so. There are dozens of folks that come to mind in fact, many students of Joko Beck for example.

I cannot tell you how much they are succeeding in the mix (sometimes I feel that the result is that the Buddhism gets lost in a bunch of California psycho-babble with many of these folks), but some good things might come from the mix.

Here is one such fellow ...Barry Magid ...

http://www.amazon.com/Ending-Pursuit-Happiness-Zen-Guide/dp/0861715535/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Thank you for that Jundo, I'll have to check out that book. I have heard rumors of Zen Therapy recently.

Friend John,

I recognise some of the trait of psychologists you paint but it does seem to rather sway into the negative. Psychology and dharma have two distinct, but overlapping, goals.

Psychology aims to help people understand behaviours that are interfering with their ability to live life and return them to 'normal' functioning' Dharma, on the other hand, takes 'normal functioning' people and removes the extraeneous suffering.

The overlap occurs at the end of psychology with minor neuroses. They will often use tools we would recognise from the dharma such as impermanence and the lack of absolute reality of thoughts to help people with mild to moderate worries. Try teaching meditation to a moderately to severely depressed or neurotic person, though, and it can be harmful to expose them even more to their thoughts and inner world.

If someone is so neurotic that their behaviour is affecting their life then should not a psychologist suggest 'corrections' to this behaviour to return their life to functioning such as the case of OCD? The patient is the one who comes to them because they feel something is wrong with them... I have never heard psychology describe the psyche as rigid (in that case, what point therapy?) but we are products of our environment and genes just as Buddhism holds us to be by karma.

I don't at all believe your last sentence to be universally true. Childhood trauma and later events can skew perception to such a degree that counselling and psychotherapy may be a necessary step before even setting foot in the world of the dharma. I do, however, agree that certain Buddhist ideas can add to the therapeutic armoury and this is already in progress.

Nicely said Karasu. I guess what I mean by rigid is that they assume that all things are causal, that we are the product of our environment and genes. This is true to a large extent, but I think that in many cases a person's natural disposition has a dramatic effect on what will influence them and in what manner. That's why you could have two siblings who were raised in the same environment and disciplined in a similar way, yet they may react completely different from each other. And in regardless to mental illness, harmful or disruptive behavior can be corrected, but before that's done a client should be shown how to feel comfortable with their illness. In many cases, once someone is labeled with a mental illness, the symptoms worsen initially.

if one experiences a deep sense of loss from say the passing away of a loved one,and they can't let it go they may very well end up having problems with their large intestine. In this situation Zen practice would be highly beneficial. On the other hand a person who has some type of phyisical intestinal disorder might be more prone to hoarding behavior because they literally and figuratively can not let it go.

That's very true Clark. Stress and depression can especially cause harm to the body. Migraines, asthma and ulcers are just a few of the effects of stress. When stressed, we're also more prone to infection because the immune system functions slower than usual. Zazen could be especially beneficial to those suffering from an anxiety disorder, though as Karasu said, perhaps not necessarily for those with clinical depression. Mindfulness may be a good medicine in that case.

I would just like to add John that there are as many schools/orientations in Psychology/Psychotherapy as in Buddhism in general.

I do recognise some of what you say in CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy) although that is the form of therapy most aligned to mindful meditation in the UK.

I do believe that the relationship between Zen and psychotherapy is a fruitful one and that each path can enrich the other.

The cognitive perspective has really taken the field by storm. It seems to have a solid foundation in which the scientific method is still used, yet there's still some room to move around haha. I have kind of soft spot for Gestalt therapy as well. Thank you all for commenting on this, it's been a pleasant and eye opening conversation. Looks like I've got some more books to tag onto the reading list

Gassho, John

[Jundo]

Zazen could be especially beneficial to those suffering from an anxiety disorder, though as Karasu said, perhaps not necessarily for those with clinical depression. Mindfulness may be a good medicine in that case.

I actually believe that Shikantaza might be excellent medicine for depression ... at least the aspect of letting dark thoughts go without getting tangled in them, not buying into the "dark hole" feeling, allowing things to be and finding the beauty in life more easily. I speak from personal experience many years ago ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10308-Greetings-by-new-folks-%28March%29&p=95479&viewfull=1#post95479

Gassho, J

[Ishin]

I actually believe that Shikantaza might be excellent medicine for depression ... at least the aspect of letting dark thoughts go without getting tangled in them, not buying into the "dark hole" feeling, allowing things to be and finding the beauty in life more easily. I speak from personal experience many years ago ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10308-Greetings-by-new-folks-%28March%29&p=95479&viewfull=1#post95479

Gassho, J

Often I comment here based on my experience with Oriental Medicine, but that is all it is. I am not trying to convert anyone to my way of thinking or certainly drum up virtual clients. I would just like to comment here based on your link. Yes! A synergistic approach is best. Nobody WANTS to be on meds, but if meditation, counseling, natural therapies are NOT working you need to get some help. Doesn't mean you should stop sitting though

In Oriental Medicine "depression" is often thought to be an issue with what we call Liver Stagnation. And what is Liver Stagnation? It is the constant emotional rigidity we develop when things do not go our way and we end up constantly frustrated. This prevents the smooth flow of ki throughout the body which can cause emotional and physical disease. If it looks like Dukkha, sounds like Dukkha, smells likes Dukkha perhaps it is! This realization is one thing that drew me to studying and now practicing Zen in the first place. I see it in my practice every day.


C

[Seizan]

Hi There,

I didn't read through all the responses, but you might be interested in looking up Naropa University in Boulder, CO. They offer Buddhist based psychology masters. In my area of the mountains, many many many mental health practitioners incorporate Buddhist philosophy from all disciplines into their treatments. I work in the detox with a large mental health group and find a lot of the principles very helpful in a hands on way.

gassho
Seizan

[lordbd]

Hi There,

I didn't read through all the responses, but you might be interested in looking up Naropa University in Boulder, CO. They offer Buddhist based psychology masters. In my area of the mountains, many many many mental health practitioners incorporate Buddhist philosophy from all disciplines into their treatments. I work in the detox with a large mental health group and find a lot of the principles very helpful in a hands on way.

gassho
Seizan

Regarding Naropa University, I would caution that they are not an APA accredited institution for their psychology program. This is not a commentary on the quality of the educational experience, but it may limit job opportunities, licensing, later applications to PhD programs depending on where you are trying to go with your degree.

[lordbd]

I actually believe that Shikantaza might be excellent medicine for depression ... at least the aspect of letting dark thoughts go without getting tangled in them, not buying into the "dark hole" feeling, allowing things to be and finding the beauty in life more easily. I speak from personal experience many years ago ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10308-Greetings-by-new-folks-%28March%29&p=95479&viewfull=1#post95479

Gassho, J

Jundo,

Very well said sir. Some of these ideas are incorporated into new psychotherapy frameworks such as Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and Mindfulness Based Cognitive Therapy mentioned above, so there is a precedent for these sorts of approaches being researched for treatment of depression.