Effortless Effort in Zazen

[Mp]

The real reason is shikantaza anyway. The source of all ethics.

Thank you Taigu.

Gassho
Shingen

[Jinyo]

Hi there - we seem to have a bit of a scramble with words and their meaning in this thread which probably wouldn't happen in a face to face conversation.

In the original comment 'women seekers' could mean gurus who seek out vulnerable females - or it could mean women who are seekers who are vulnerable to seduction.

Well, either way I think it was worth raising the point 'why particularly women' and Taigu clarified this by saying males aswell.

But then we seem to be focused on spiritual seduction that becomes romantic/sexual seduction.

Can't speak for Ohesu or Fugu but my comment was focussed on spiritual seduction and I think that's a very important topic because the internet, with all its diversions/charismatic speakers of many persuasions, is probably the biggest spiritual seducer of all.

Tree Leaf is a compass in all of this with a magnetic pole fixed and true.

That's all really,

Gassho

Willow

[alan.r]

All I have right now is an audio interview with Mr. Shiff.

I am afraid that all I am is a one trick pony, going radically and profoundly into non-seeking. It is very different from any form of meditation in which one is looking to get some pay-off. (That does not mean that we don't have a Wondrous payoff-non-payoff in our Shikantaza way ... only that we "get it" by giving up the constant hunt because the "payoff" is to be free of lack and need and division). Since there is nothing to get in our Practice, there is no way anything can be lacking in it ... when it is done right! (Cause if you experience that there is something lacking in it, I am afraid your mind is still chasing things!) So very different from the rest of life ... even from so many Buddhist techniques ... where one is chasing, trying to achieve, trying to get, running after, analyzing.

So, it is hard for me to comment on his various methods of Vipassana meditation and such, because ... while a wonderful path ... it is a tool and technique to get something, work some technique, analyze something. So, it is like asking a football coach (non-football in our case, because there is no GOAL! and we are all winners! ) about how to play tennis.

All I can say is that any doubt, confusion, judging, comparing and such going on about Zazen (or any aspect of life) in someone's head is .... going on in the head. Don't fall into that trap. I do like what he says in the interview about letting the sitting be.

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/08/bg-185-unlearning-meditation/

Gassho, Jundo ... One Trick Pony

Oh, we know all about your one trick, but it's a trick that is a non-trick, since it always reveals all our own tricks of getting and wanting and avoiding, and even though I know (or think I know) your non-trick, since you mentioned you were going to read it, I like to hear your no-trick tricking us back again and again out of tricking ourselves.

(that's my best attempt at a Jundo; it kind of pleasantly warped my mind a little)

Gassho

[Jundo]

Oh, we know all about your one trick, but it's a trick that is a non-trick, since it always reveals all our own tricks of getting and wanting and avoiding, and even though I know (or think I know) your non-trick, since you mentioned you were going to read it, I like to hear your no-trick tricking us back again and again out of tricking ourselves.

(that's my best attempt at a Jundo; it kind of pleasantly warped my mind a little)

Gassho

Not bad.

[Ishin]

Wow!
That was a big gulp to swallow, and having paid my admission fee by digesting all that I feel I need to spit something back up. Fortunately, I have already begun learning about nurturing seeds practice, and have learned to chop a few limbs down. That being said I hope something I have to say is taken in the right light of not attacking anyone, but in the spirit of encouragement and guidance.

I am not a Zen Master, but I have spent a good deal of time thinking about things spiritual, and I am all too familiar with the Self Appointed Guru scene. I spent 6 years living in what I used to call Sandy Ego, California. There is a HUGE market in the self promotion of all things spiritual there. To borrow a line from the rock band, Rush. "But glittering prizes and endless compromises shatter the illusion of integrity"

I THINK that part of what Taigu and Jundo are trying to say, is that people like Deepak Chopra, Adyashanti (how come these people are never named Bob?) is that it isn't so much WHAT these people are teaching, as much as the context in which they are teaching it that becomes a problem. They are basically throwing a hodge podge of spiritual information together and then having workshops and book deals. Do they have anything valuable to say? Yes The thing is, they aren't really saying anything that hasn't already been said, they just put themselves out there as this charasmatic personality and MARKET themselves as the next big thing. For example I know someone who used to know Deepak personally but became very disillusioned with him when he went from where he started to driving around in a convertable sportscar with his trophy wife.

To put this in another context, something from my own profession. There have been holistic health practitioners talking about the inter-relationship between the body mind spirit chakras for millenia, yet you take an MD who spends a little time learning about it, and next thing you know she has a whole industry based on her "discoveries". Well she's an MD, so now we know it's true right?

Maybe another hypothetical situation. How about if we took someone outside the Catholic church who has a "relevation" from God. Next thing you know this person has a book deal about the methods of prayer and steps to avoid purgatory. You can go join his weekend workshops and be saved for the low price of 179.00 for the entire weekend. Hurry while seats are still open. Because you know we are only here to help the quick and the rich.

The original posted video in this thread does have good information, BUT to me, the person asking the question is so typical of the more Westernized problem with Zen. "I am doing all the work properly, but what do I GET out of it. I am so desperate to loose ME, that I am willing to do any work and pay any price so that I can say with confidence that I have IT. Wheh another one off the bucket list, now I think I'll try Iron Man" Willow you talked about the sometimes "harsh" tenure of dialog in here. I am not sure if this is more of a Zen influence, a Japanese influence, or just Jundo tied of us messing up his lawn. I would rather have a million scoldings coming from compassion and integrity, than the kind of sanguine syrupy dialogue as exposed above. After all, we wouldn't want to scare away customers. I feel Treeleaf exhibits an exemplary level of integrity. Taigu doesn't even want me calling him teacher.

So that being said with deepest compassion and integrity and well wishing I am going to BONK you on the head shikantazen! You say you are going to see him talk again and my question to you is WHY? The question isn't really about people like Adyashanti. The question is what about you feels the need to go see him live? As Jundo hinted at, what is it that you want to have further nailed down about this practice? What is it you cannot get from the books you already have?? What does he got that no one else does other than a huge following?

Why not just find yourself involved with a good Zendo and sit! There are probably more seats open.
Gassho
C

[Jinyo]

I agree with what you say Clark but would just like to point out that you haven't quite quoted me correctly. I wrote that the directness of tone might be sometimes misconstrued as a little harsh. I wasn't referring to the dialogue in this thread as I feel Jundo and Taigu have been very patient in this matter. It is clear what is being taught here and the tradition the teaching stems from and I agree there's nothing to be gained from adding more.

Gassho

Willow

[Ishin]

Understood Willow. I did sort of misquote you, my apologies.
Gassho C

[Daitetsu]

Hi Clark,

So that being said with deepest compassion and integrity and well wishing I am going to BONK you on the head shikantazen! You say you are going to see him talk again and my question to you is WHY? The question isn't really about people like Adyashanti. The question is what about you feels the need to go see him live? As Jundo hinted at, what is it that you want to have further nailed down about this practice? What is it you cannot get from the books you already have?? What does he got that no one else does other than a huge following?

I can't speak for Sam, but it might be possible that he has not decided for one path entirely (maybe even without knowing it).
There are different paths out there, and I don't want to say that any one is better than the others. However, for some people a Soto approach is more appropriate, for others a Rinzai approach and again for others Adyashanti's way.
AFAIK A. puts an emphasis on a big awakening, i.e. Satori. I remember an interview with him in which he kind of complained about a "low success rate in Zen".
On the other hand Soto practice puts not a single big Satori in focus - however, it is not belittled or rejected either.
Thus IMHO A.'s practice is actually closer to Rinzai than to Soto, but I might be wrong.

I think it would be helpful for many people who come to Treeleaf to read "Once born, twice born Zen" as first lecture, since it can make clear for many which path is more suited to them personally. Alas, it is out of print (Jundo has posted some excerpts of it though in the past).

Anyway, these are just assumptions, maybe Sam is commited to one path - I just wanted to mention this possibility.

Gassho,

Timo

[Ishin]

Greetings Timo

I understand what you mean, and I am certainly NOT saying that this/my/any path is the RIGHT way.

I guess I am more suggesting that perhaps a less "glittering" path might be a clearer one. Rather than becoming some kind of workshop or lecture junkie, sitting in a normal everyday Zendo ( of one's choice) and just going about the work of practicing might not be as entertaining, but would actually be more to the point.

Gassho C

[shikantazen]

So that being said with deepest compassion and integrity and well wishing I am going to BONK you on the head shikantazen! You say you are going to see him talk again and my question to you is WHY? The question isn't really about people like Adyashanti. The question is what about you feels the need to go see him live? As Jundo hinted at, what is it that you want to have further nailed down about this practice? What is it you cannot get from the books you already have?? What does he got that no one else does other than a huge following?

Why not just find yourself involved with a good Zendo and sit! There are probably more seats open.
Gassho
C

Thanks for taking the freedom and giving a BONK Clark. I appreciate your concern. Good questions. Here are my answers.

Honestly I am not convinced that Adyashanti is fake. I take what Jundo said about Adyashanti to be just his opinion. I have read his books and listened to his talks and everything about him seems to me to be very honest and truthful. Honestly I don't know how many here have read his "True Meditation". Without reading that whatever you say against him is baseless in my view.

One thing I noticed though is this. I started a topic about Adyashanti few months back. I feel I care less about defending him now than before. Probably my sitting has made me less attached to my opinions.

That is why sitting is my main thing. Everything else (Adyashanti, zen books, other books or talks etc..) is for fun.

I often get this advice on this forum. Do they say in Zen not to attend to these kind of other teachings/talks? Does it affect one's practice? I'm kind of used to this kind of spiritual cross-browsing (I even read vipassana books occasionally) and I feel it won't affect my practice or dedication to zen in anyway. You or others here can help me understand this aspect.

Thanks again


Sam

[Jinyo]

Hi Sam - this is just my personal opinion but to clarify a little further. I don't think there is anything intrinsically detrimental in spiritual cross-browsing and I'm sure we all read a diversity of material. Buddhism is a very wide subject.

In 'Bendowa' Dogen writes,

'Remember, among Buddhists we do not argue about superiority and inferiority of philosophies, or choose between shallowness and profundity in the Dharma; we need only know whether the practice is genuine or artificial.'

I think we can only decide and sense within ourselves whether a teaching/teacher strikes one as authentic. 'Bendowa' does contain a kind of Socratic dialogue where the questioner broaches this subject.

One of the reasons I gravitate towards Soto Zen and the teachings here is because they are clearly referenced and rooted in a tradition. Jundo and Taigu may have their own personal styles of presentation but they never claim to have 'invented' something new.

I'm not saying Adyashanti does this - I haven't read anything he's written. I think it's more a case of our suggesting it's worth putting one's efforts whole heartedly into what is on offer here and giving it a chance to deepen and flower.

I can understand that it might seem narrow minded to advice to just concentrate on one teaching for a while - but I feel the distraction in my own mind when I start going off on a tangent. I think it dilutes and confuses - but that's just me.

I only mean this in relation to Zazen, which is deeply rooted in Dogen's teachings here. As the 'method' is so clearly set out it doesn't seem necessary to go outside of this - though it is inevitable that there will be parallels and resonances in other teachings elsewhere.

I use Buddhist philosophy a lot in my art work - creativity is another matter - for that I take freely from everywhere

Gassho

Willow

[Oheso]

I use Buddhist philosophy a lot in my art work - creativity is another matter - for that I take freely from everywhere

hi Willow, this has a lot of pertinence to me, as a meditating painter.

it's curious to me when people say they perceive the "eastern influence" in my works of the last couple of years. although I view zen and art-making as 2 aspects of an aspectless practice, they are often strange bed-fellows, as the saying goes.

there is a lot of communication between these 2 practices of mine and they're mostly mutually nourishing. still sometimes I view them each singly big enough to devour me in one gulp without batting a golden eye- I'm an Egyptian soldier in hot pursuit of Israel finding himself at once with 2 oceans coming together over his head, -I can see how I might perish.

gassho -Robert

Sam, I think you have a good questioning head on your shoulders

[Ishin]

I agree with all that Willow had to say

I am no expert by any means Sam at any of this. I am certainly not suggesting that this path, this place is THE place for you. What I am suggesting is there is a danger in following people with questionable motives. You will have to find that out for yourself. There is also a tendency for some people to do what I call spiritual puddle jumping. A little wisdom here and a little knowledge there, but what ends up happening is that you can accumulate all of this and never put any ONE of them into deep practice. Some people THINK they are getting somewhere by learning from a variety of sources when actually they are just skimming the surface without doing any real work.

I guess I am also saying it really doesn't have to be complicated, the whole essence of Zen is simplification. Why not keep it simple.

Gassho
C

[RichardH]

Well, I don't know what Taigu meant about popularity with the ladies, but he and I are not particularly attractive to men or anybody too. We are universally uncharismatic.

Hi Jundo. I couldn't help but read this and smile with appreciation for you and Taigu. You show your humanity without any polishing at all. The teaching by example is so ordinary it seeps in slowly. Deep bows.


Gassho Daizan

[Fugu]

What do you want me to say?

I am baffled by how stiff some of us can be when gender related topics are discussed.

gassho


T.

Shenpa.

Gassho,
Fugu