Effortless Effort in Zazen

[shikantazen]

A discussion about Effortless Effort in Zazen. What Adyashanti calls "True Meditation" is essentially goalless sitting of shikantaza

Effortless Effort:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1-QVmrlbyU

[Jundo]

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I am not a fan of Adyashanti, a well studied poser and double talker much of the time (including in lots of this particular talk). But not every word out of his mouth need be foolish.

Gassho, J

[shikantazen]

I know you don't have a high opinion of him Jundo. I respect your views even though I fail to see any faults in him. I hope there is something I'm missing that you can see better.

I feel it is impossible for someone to just study and speak so well and be so spontaneous unless it is experiential. His teachings are a bit of non-dual and zen mix and may be that's what makes you feel it to be a double talk.

Coincidentally the way he teaches shikantaza and the way you/brad/nishijima teach are strikingly similar. And whenever I quoted him without using his name you really liked my quotes

I feel he described shikantaza like no other teacher did. I understand it is better left un-described but his "True Meditation" book is the most wonderful description of shikantaza I ever found. Hope you have time to listen to the audio book format of it below and share your views on it. I think what I am sharing will benefit others. I think as practitioners/students it doesn't really harm. It is just like reading another book, use it or throw it.

[Jundo]

I have been reading and listening to his talks for years, and find him a charismatic, smooth-talkin' showman purveying fiddle-faddle with all the right spiritual buzzwords and "seems to be saying something deep" non-sequitors to wow his audience. As P.T. Barnum (another good showman) said, there's a fool born every minute. A spiritual "caveat emptor".

I respect many Advaita folks for truly Teaching as they Teach. This Adya, however, is all hat no cattle.

I would prefer that his nonsense not be posted here.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - This is what I posted last time you introduced "Adya'going" here, and I stand by it ...

----------------------------

I wrote this some years ago, and my opinion is about the same. I do not criticize easily, but sometimes my "spider senses" vibrate about some folks ...

I first looked into Adyashanti's writings about 5 years ago, when he was heartily recommended by a friend. I read everything I could at the time, and listened or watched the recorded talks I could. What I thus say is based on my impression, my gut reaction and some of the claims he makes for himself. Since that time I have looked at or listened to other talks, and my opinion is about the same.

In a nutshell, I see someone who is trying a bit hard (and succeeding) to make a career as a California style Guru. My conclusion is based in part on the persona, but also on the content of his talks. I find someone who is very charismatic, and may have had an experience here and there ... but he seems extremely well studied, as if he memorized every Tolle and 100 other books and is just regurgitating/reformulating/repackaging the contents under a new label. He throws around the same old, tired old, buzzwords of Eastern Wisdom, casting himself as one who has crossed over to the other side. He speaks with a very smooth tongue, but all does not ring true to me. In talks he gives, I often have picked up on sections which sound like pure New Age, cosmic double talk too. Out there in California, there are 1000 guys trying to make a career out of a funky name and a like persona, and this one does not ring true (though he is very gifted as someone playing the part he is).

I will add this: I am not saying that everything he says is foolish (it isn't. There is some very nice sections and advice in what was posted above. Because he is repackaging standard advice picked up here and there, and common advice on "just sitting", there is some good stuff here and there). He is also better and smoother at the pitch over the years. I think he is a very charismatic individual (a kind of anti-charisma charisma).

I once described him as marketing himself (yes, I will call it "marketing" by a very smooth talker like a good shoe salesman) as an "anti-guru" ... your guru who keeps telling you that he is "not a guru" (thus a great guru better than those who call themselves "guru") who offers enlightenment by saying it is "not enlightenment". That video is a good example. Some good, basic wisdom with much spiritual posing and double-talk.

Just to make clear ... I do not think the Adyashanti is a nefarious evildoer, and there are certainly a lot worse out there ... I even think he may be well meaning at heart (seems like a gentle fellow), plus he has a relaxing voice and a very pleasant manner. I think he is extremely smooth and practiced in his presentation, very well read in the literature of other like teachers, and it is all soothing to the ear of people looking for that kind of thing.

He is very popular and his retreats are always full and they have a lottery system for each retreat with a big waiting list. Even his weekend intensives also get full quickly and the only one I attended had about 700 people.

Yes, the line at the drive-thru at McDonalds is sometimes very long too.

Spiritual Buyer Beware.

Deep-pockets Chopra is another fellow who gets my goat.

Gassho, Jundo (in his "kids, get off my lawn" mood )

[Myosha]

Thank you teacher.

Happily, beings can 'wake-up' as they are ready.


Gassho,
Edward

[Taigu]

Yes, unfortunately, I share Jundo s point of view. I have great respect for guys like Ponjaji but that guy always sound like a charismatic manipulator. He is picking up Zen words and concepts and adviata directions and turn everything into a tasty fusion mash. Not as dangerous and cynical as Adi Da but as intellectual and twisted. Another popular teacher with women (actually like many Advaita teachers who tend to play a lot on the guru- loving side of things)) is Mooji ( more on the Teddy bear side of things)who comes every so often with insightful talks yet, something tells me that it is not the real deal.

Again. Avaita is Advaita and Zen is Zen. Mixing paths is a tasty but dangerous recipe for spiritual disaster and emotional çrash.

jundo and I are not that popular with women seekers, and this for a good reason, we don t play the game of spiritual seduction and presents Zen as a living and boring tradition.

Gassho

Taigu

[Taigu]

And, shikantazen, as you are so interested to listen to this bloke, go ahead! Why don't you follow his teachings and meet him? After all, this would be a good experience to meet with an enlightened teacher who proclaims he is, self made man in enlightenment and business. As you know, it is going to cost you a lot, guru are not cheap, they are a bit of a luxury ( it is amazing to see how many expenses they have to run a simple and detached life...), the bigger cost will be emotional and very painful if you are not lucky.

After I might be wrong. Go and have a peep!

Here we simply don't charge for the teachings and I don't take from my students: I give. And work in the world to keep my feet grounded, food on my plate, a roof over my head and possibilities to be kind to others.

i recently bumped into a great definition, as a close up magician I did find it very true: what is the different between a card cheat and a magician? The first one takes things from you ( money, trust) the other one through astonishement and wonder, gives you again and again.

Up to you to see who is who.

Gassho

Taigu

[Kokuu]

I have noticed a modern trend in Buddhism to present teachings that go beyond tradition such as Big Mind, Unlearning Meditation, True Meditation etc. By claiming to have gone further than the established tradition these individuals (and it does always seem to be individuals) accomplish two things:

1. They cast doubt on the validity of the traditional teachings since their take has gone beyond that using wisdom that was unavailable to our ignorant forebears
2. They set themselves apart from tradition, therefore not serving tradition or subject to its rules but able to call the shots based on their own thoughts rather than that which has been tried and tested over millennia.

Of course, the Buddha himself was one such individual, as was Dogen, but those who have something new to offer seem few as opposed to those whose teachings dissolve when held up in the light into nothing more than the emperor's new clothes.

Gassho
Andy

[Jinyo]

'jundo and I are not that popular with women seekers, and this for a good reason, we don t play the game of spiritual seduction and presents Zen as a living and boring tradition.'

It's maybe more complex than that Taigu. Thich Nhat Hahn has many female followers - but I think it's more to do with his deep aura of compassion than 'spiritual seduction'.

In the realm of spiritual seduction why would female seekers be more drawn in than male? I don't know the statistics but the numbers at these large followings seem to be pretty evenly split between male/female? The need to be spiritually seduced is not necessarily gender driven.

I recently came across a Mooji talk (had not heard of him before) and he does present as endearing in some way. Another safe port in the storm for troubled seekers - male and female alike?

We only ever really know by looking within ourselves whether we are being spiritually seduced. Even straight forward teaching can be received in a way that stems from a need within the receiver to be drawn in at a level that's askew in some way.

As a female student I can confirm that don't feel spiritually seduced by the message or the messengers here

Zen in all its simplicity, wonder and boredom is just simply presented at Tree Leaf - with nothing added and nothing taken away. I have a preference for this - even if, from time to time, I struggle with a directness of tone that might be misconstrued as a little harsh.

Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

I have noticed a modern trend in Buddhism to present teachings that go beyond tradition such as Big Mind, Unlearning Meditation, True Meditation etc. By claiming to have gone further than the established tradition these individuals (and it does always seem to be individuals) accomplish two things:

1. They cast doubt on the validity of the traditional teachings since their take has gone beyond that using wisdom that was unavailable to our ignorant forebears
2. They set themselves apart from tradition, therefore not serving tradition or subject to its rules but able to call the shots based on their own thoughts rather than that which has been tried and tested over millennia.

Of course, the Buddha himself was one such individual, as was Dogen, but those who have something new to offer seem few as opposed to those whose teachings dissolve when held up in the light into nothing more than the emperor's new clothes.

Gassho
Andy

Hi Andy,

I do not know if it is simply a matter of going "beyond tradition", because there are so many worthy attempts these days to adapt and re-express old Traditions to current times and culture. I include Taigu and me in that, and the great experiment here at Treeleaf. It is something that has been going on since the Buddha's time, as Hinayana birthed Mahayana, as Indian ways were adapted to China, Chinese ways to Japan ... and now to the 21st Century West.

There are some Traditions to keep, some to adapt ... some perhaps to leave behind. There are "new Traditions" to invent, and new ways to present the Dharma. On the other hand, some things may throw out the Baby Buddha with the Bathwater.

For me, it is not a matter of "new" or "old" ... but simply between "worthwhile" and not, between "healthy and good for you" and "fast food consumerist (even if tasty and attracting long lines) garbage", between "profound & authentic" and a "shallow rip-off".

Which is which? Maybe only time will tell.

Gassho, J

[Kokuu]

Hi Jundo

I tend to differentiate between those which adapt traditions to modern times and those which throw the Buddha out with the bath water. I guess it can be hard to tell the difference.

Like you say, it is not a case of new and old and tinkering with religious tradition as doubtless been going on as long as religion itself. As with making new recipes, only tasting the result can show whether it is successful or not, and not every taster will be of the same opinion.

Gassho
Andy

[Oheso]

jundo and I are not that popular with women seekers, and this for a good reason, we don t play the game of spiritual seduction and presents Zen as a living and boring tradition.

ladies?

[shikantazen]

Hi Taigu,

I did go to couple of his meetings/talks earlier and will be going to one in Los Angeles this coming saturday.

I'm sure you guys see much beyond than me on whats wrong with Adyashanti. I have learnt lot from his books though and I see the same things being said in other Zen books too (Pema Chodron, Suzuki etc..). His "true meditation" is essentially the below things and I don't see it any different from how shikantaza taught by brad/jundo/nishijima is

No-manipulation
Sitting and allowing everything to be as it is
don't make "allowing everything to be as it is" also a goal. there is no goal. It is not about trying to perfect a technique
letting go of the control; letting go of the meditator or the one who is trying to do it right
a silent prayer, a wordless surrender
whatever you seek is already here (Similar to Zen: you are already awakened/buddha)
Sitting with effortless effort (yet non-manipulative) so that you are not going into a dreamy/hazy mindset

it is the best book i ever read about shikantaza.

yes i find him charismatic. i find taigu too charismatic. i think the wisdom that flows from such teachers makes them charismatic to students. i don't think it is due to some intentional manipulation by the teachers.

That said, I'll refrain from posting his links as you and Jundo think that can misguide other students. I'll be mindful not to mix teachings; for me Zen is doing the trick

thank you all

[Jundo]

Well, I don't know what Taigu meant about popularity with the ladies, but he and I are not particularly attractive to men or anybody too. We are universally uncharismatic.

Sam (aka Shikantazen), I like a lot of Pema Chodron too, and we are all Buddhists, but I would not call her a writer of "Zen Books" either. As I have said to you before, Sam, one reason I feel you have been so constantly all over this Forum (and other Buddhist fora on the internet too where I see you) trying to "nail down" Shikantaza is because you are not being very discerning. Baseball is not cricket, although both are played with ball and bat and share much the same lingo.

What you say about Adyashanti's description of "true meditation" (No-manipulation, Sitting and allowing everything to be as it is, etc.) is very common advice, platitudes on meditation that many people will say. The above audio you posted is not the worst I have ever heard out of his mouth (believe me, I have heard and read much by him). But, Sam, since you seem to have such a good understanding of what Adya means, might I ask you to explain a couple of things to me in the audio you posted to help my understanding?

Sam, what does he mean at 10:25 that "... the most important thing is your intention. You can do everything wrong, but if your intention is really right on, that's going to do it"? It sounds very good, and a lovely positive phrase, but please put it in other words for me.

At 13:40 "to walk up to the microphone, you are using effortless effort ... if we get stuck on effort, we are striving too much. If we get attached to no effort, we are going way too unconscious." Can you help me understand better, especially "If we get attached to no effort, we are going way too unconscious."?

Sorry to put you on the spot.

Gassho, J

[shikantazen]

Well, I don't know what Taigu meant about popularity with the ladies, but he and I are not particularly attractive to men or anybody too. We are universally uncharismatic.

....
.....
Sam, what does he mean at 10:25 that "... the most important thing is your intention. You can do everything wrong, but if your intention is really right on, that's going to do it"? It sounds very good, and a lovely positive phrase, but please put it in other words for me.

At 13:40 "to walk up to the microphone, you are using effortless effort ... if we get stuck on effort, we are striving too much. If we get attached to no effort, we are going way too unconscious." Can you help me understand better, especially "If we get attached to no effort, we are going way too unconscious."?

Sorry to put you on the spot.

Gassho, J

Just to clarify, when I said I find Adyashanti or Taigu to be charismatic, I don't mean in a being attracted way . I am just saying I am in-awe/inspired by their wisdom.

Now to your questions...

>> "... the most important thing is your intention. You can do everything wrong, but if your intention is really right on, that's going to do it"?

I think he is trying clarify the idea that shikantaza is not about perfecting a technique or getting it right. It is same thing that zen teachers say: "there is no right/wrong zazen". You only screw it up by worrying. Now by intention he means the seriousness/sincerity with which we approach zazen. By seriousness it is the same thing when you said "That does not mean that just sitting any old way, like a bump on a log, twiddling one's thumbs or taking a nap is "Shikantaza".".

>> At 13:40 "to walk up to the microphone, you are using effortless effort ... if we get stuck on effort, we are striving too much. If we get attached to no effort, we are going way too unconscious." Can you help me understand better, especially "If we get attached to no effort, we are going way too unconscious."?

As Zazen is often described as "Zazen does zazen and don't worry about it", people can mistake it to be as requiring no effort at all. He is clarifying not to put too much effort and at the same time to not be attached to putting no effort at all. It is the same thing that all zen teachers talk about. even you talk about zazen not being a lazy sitting. it is the same thing

Here is his description from the True Meditation book:
"Meditating in an effortless way is not the same thing as being lazy. One of the profound instructions my teacher used to give when I talk to her about my meditation is this. "Is it Vivid? Is it alive?. This is a very good instruction. If we are simply making no effort in a way that's lazy, then our meditation gets dreamy and foggy. Effortless doesn't mean being lazy or falling into sleep; effortless means just enough effort to be vivid, present, to be here, to be now. To be bright. Too much effort and we get too tight; too little effort and we get dreamy. We each need to find out for ourselves what this means."