Why we sit cross-legged

[Ryumon]

Just a thought, but it seems the only reason we sit cross-legged is because the Japanese who developed Zen (and the Chinese and Indians before them) didn't have chairs. I know Treeleaf is not anti-chair/stool, but for some of us, cross-legged is painful. I've been trying a chair where I lean vac a bit and my back doesn't get tense and painful. Any thoughts on this?

[Jiken]

An interesting revelation for me. Due to a knee surgery I was forced to due zazen in a chair and it brought to light my attachment to sitting in the cross legged position. I actually fought against the chair even while sitting in it hoping for my knee to heal quickly so I could get back to "normal". The whole situation for me has been worthwhile

Gassho

Daido

[Kokuu]

Interesting, Kirk. As Buddhism takes on a more western form, I think it is useful to look at why we practice as we do and leave no sacred cows.

Personally I find sitting cross-legged to provide a more stable base for my spine than sitting in a chair but agree that I have noticed in myself a certain pride at being able to sit like the ancestors. Attachment to 'doing it right' would seem far less useful than being comfortable when sitting. Although being able to tolerate some degree of discomfort is no bad thing, and most bodies will take time to adjust to longer periods of sitting, if it is so uncomfortable to be unbearable, it rather defeats the purpose of sitting and just becomes an endurance contest.

One of my teachers always found it hard to sit cross-legged but early on in his life was so attached to doing it that way he actually caused himself physical harm. In contrast, one of the insight meditation guys (Joseph Goldstein I think but could be wrong) remembers one of his teachers commenting on his pride at being able to sit in the full lotus position and pointed out that sitting like that would not get him enlightened any quicker.

In summary, I would take function over form.


Gassho
Andy

[Patrick]

Here is an article by Susan Moon on chair sitting. Read and enjoy !

http://www.tricycle.com/-cushion/leaving-lotus-position

[Myosha]

Always helpful to remember that lotus position aligns the body. The force of gravity allows balance. Once it feels 'right' slipping off the mind/body lets you nap. . .uhh. . .wait. . .sit(!).^^

Gassho,
Edward

[Rich]

tai1.jpgTai2.jpg

From free kindle book - Buddha in Bluejeans by Tai Sheridan

You don't have to fit a square peg in a round hole.

[Jundo]

Hi Kirk,

The topic has come up many times, but I agree with what you are saying for the most part. There is something very nurturing of a balanced mind in the balanced posture of the Lotus ... if it can be comfortably sat. I do believe that skinny Indians, Chinese and Japanese, living in traditionally more "floor based" cultures, had greater physical flexibility and acclimation than "thunder thighed" chair sitting Westerners (even younger Asians, more used to chairs and less to the traditional ways of sitting, are having trouble now). I also think that the physical benefits of the posture have been fetishized and exaggerated somewhat, especially by the very form conscious Japanese (even more than the Chinese, Tibetans and others on the continent who are often less rigid and obsessive about the posture than the Japanese.)

I think that the Lotus Postures or Burmese (which I sit about half the time) are wonderful, and that before one decides not to sit so, one should give them a real try seeing if one can get the legs to adjust.

But if not ... or if there continues to be pain or imbalance ... the Zazen bench, Seiza or a chair is fine if sat with balance. Just as good perhaps.

Our "How To Sit" booklet for newcomers goes into those alternatives ...

https://sites.google.com/site/jundotreeleaf/TreeleafBasicZazenInstructions.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1

We have actually spoken about this before, Kirk, on some other threads where I said about the same ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?9372-SPLIT-TOPIC-Sitting-Posture-Posturing&p=70193&viewfull=1#post70193

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Let me add that sitting with a sometime bit of pain or other discomfort is an important part of this practice ... for we learn to sit allowing "what is". Also, if pain is more than "sometimes" but is due to a physical condition where it cannot be alleviated ... then we learn to sit with that too, allowing "what is".

However, if the pain is more than "sometimes", and can be alleviated by changing posture to one without the pain ... then best to change posture to a comfortable, balanced way without the pain.

Gassho, J

[Nameless]

I find it beneficial to switch up my sitting style. Variety is the spice of life as they say. Sitting in lotus is a great way to balance the body/mind and if some discomfort arises it's good practice to be able to accept it and float on. That being said, I am a thunder thighed American and find the full lotus IMPOSSIBLE for this body. I tend to alternate between half lotus and Burmese and if I'm feeling adventurous I like sitting seiza (which causes me a fair amount of discomfort, though I don't notice it much until I'm finished Shikantaza and attempting to stand). I was distracted from Zazen for a few days and since I'm not Awakened (I prefer saying this rather than enlightened, seems to be more applicable) it's easy for me to slip back into the BS. I started to a feel a bit anxious, trying to find something to do and on the cusp of boredom when I just stopped, sat in a chair in the kitchen and sat for 30 minutes. I felt just as centered in the chair as I do when I sit in any other style, so I guess it just depends on the individual and the circumstances.



Gassho, John

[Jundo]

Well, even Buddhas seem to struggle with Lotus when they put on a few pounds.



And just for reference, this painful pose (my limit before real pain sets in is about 20 minutes) is Japanese "Seiza", not what most western Zen students think of as "seiza" on their little benches and such. Sitting directly on the ankles, no Zafu tucked between the legs for support or the like. In Zen temples in Japan, one may sometimes need to sit in such fashion for hours at a time.



Gassho, Jundo

** For those who may be wondering about the "Fat Buddha" seen in Chinese restaurants and such ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6156-home-altar&p=20454&viewfull=1#post20454

[Mp]

Oh ... I know that seiza from Aikido as well as, tons of suwari waza.

Gassho
Shingen

[YuimaSLC]

Sitting seiza can cut-off circulation to the feet, rendering them extremely numb after 30 minutes or so. Be careful upon getting up from your mat that you can confirm you've got feeling in your feet. I remember chanting the Lotus Sutra with a colleague of mine, a Nichiren Buddhist priest, for about an hour, sitting seiza directly in front of the altar, on a very thin, firm mat. When finished, he promptly arose, and went to the bathroom. I rose, took one step forward and literally fell flat to the floor with a very loud thud. Both feet were completely numb and inoperable for a few minutes and I didn't even know it when rising up off the mat. That! was an awakening. You only have to do that once, you know.

Sitting on the zafu in seiza can help lift your rear directly off the ankles and feet, thus providing better circulation. But then, sometimes the pressure of the zafu (turned on it's side) actually can make
the pubic area go a bit numb. This, of course, all comes from personal experience because I have never, ever been able to sit either full or half lotus, in youth or older age. Now, I use a padded zazen bench. (And taking restorative yoga in hopes that someday I can get back to a comfortable Burmese-style pose.)

The bench actually allows you to spread the knees apart 18-24", thus providing a healthy "tripod" stability to sitting. One piece of advice using the bench...besides swaying side-to-side when beginning a sitting, it's valuable to also get a sense of the position of your lower back/hips so that you are sitting squarely on the "sits bones" by rocking the hips backward and forward a half dozen times.....neither slumped back or pitched too far forward. (Issho Fujita, a Japanese Zen Buddhist priest, pays careful attention to "posture"....so there may be some Web links to that someone can assist in finding.)

Finally, there was a very well constructed, ergonomic chair produced some years ago, called a Balans chair, that I once found very helpful to use....for zazen and for sitting at a desk. Anyone know if they are still available?

Gassho

Richard

[Ryumon]

Yes, Balans chairs, made by the Norwegian company Stokke, are still available and have spawned many imitations. You need to get one where you can adjust the distance between the seat and knees. I used one for many years as my desk chair.


(Posted from my iPhone; please excuse any typos or brevity.)

[Jinyo]

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From free kindle book - Buddha in Bluejeans by Tai Sheridan

You don't have to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Thanks for that Rich - I'm going to look it up.

There's always wise/balanced advice here regarding sitting.

Let's face it - we're probably all going to get old, frail, unable to adopt these sitting positions (I like the stories of the ancients sitting upright 'till they happily keel over into death - but its a bit improbable for the average human being).

Don't we learn something of attitude of mind through sitting that translates into the whole of life - and transcends our physical limitations. I really hope so - else it means Zazen is excluding.

I really wish more was talked/written about disability and Zen - I think Warner's take on it has mellowed - he now writes that he finds a way to work with individuals who genuinely can't sit full/half Lotus - but I can't understand why not to be able to do so is viewed so much outside the norm.

Perhaps the neuroscientists need to do one of their studies to see if there's really any difference at all - that might be interesting.

Gassho

Willow

[Ryumon]

One thing that I find when sitting non-cross-legged is that my breathing is much more relaxed; I don't need to tense up my back muscles to maintain a straight posture if I can lean my back against a chair. And this relaxed breathing seems to lead to more relaxed meditation.