Why we sit cross-legged

[Daitetsu]

There is a difference between just enduring pain and actually injuring yourself...

I have a knee deformation that cannot be seen by the naked eye.
However, whenever I get on my knees this is very painful for me. The doctor said I should avoid kneeling as much as I can.
At the beginning I ignored this advice though. I could endure the pain during zazen.
However, one day - I think it was during one of the 4 hour monthly zazenkais here - I felt there was something wrong.
When I got up one knee was swollen and stiff, I could hardly move it for days.
As it turned out, doing zazen "the traditional way" would actually damage a part of my body, so I decided to sit on a chair without backrest, additionally using a wedge pillow to ensure a straight posture.
At the beginning this was a bit odd for me, but now everything is fine. I sit directly on my sitting bones as usual and feel no difference to "the old days". Health comes first!

Another thing I can very much recommend is doing zazen in the so-called Wu Chi standing position from standing Qigong. I found a short description here:

http://www.energygatesqigong.info/internal-strength/wu-chi-the-first-position.html

69_7_12-zhan-zhuang.jpg


No need to believe in the concept of chi, this is just about the posture described there.
Whenever I use this posture it is almost like "blue sky right away". Can't explain why, but I have found it very effective to do once in a while.

Gassho,

Timo

[Kyonin]

I sit in burmese position thanks to 40 years of overweight.

Hope yoga helps me achieve full lotus someday

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Jundo]

I sit in burmese position thanks to 40 years of overweight.

Hope yoga helps me achieve full lotus someday

Gassho,

Kyonin

Please keep us posted, between the Lotus and your marathon running, how your knees and ankles are holding out in 20 years!

By the way, even the historical Buddha complained of back aches. I do not want to say that the Lotus was a contributing factor ... but it is possible.

From the Avassuta Sutta

Then not long after the Kapilavatthu Sakyans had left, the Blessed One addressed Ven. Maha Moggallana: "Moggallana, the community of monks is free of drowsiness. Give them a Dhamma talk of your own devising. My back aches. I will rest it."

Ven. Maha Moggallana responded, "As you say, lord."

Then the Blessed One, having arranged his outer robe folded in four, lay down on his right side in the lion's sleeping posture, with one foot on top of the other, mindful & alert, having made a mental note to get up.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn35/sn35.202.than.html

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

For beginners, I want to emphasize that (in my reading of Shikantaza history) many Soto priests have confused and confounded (1) Dogen's emphasis on the sacredness, completeness and wonder of the act of sitting Zazen (which, in his day, meant sitting in the Lotus Posture) with (2) the potency and workings of the Lotus Posture-as-posture as the central point. When Dogen spoke of the wonder of sitting Zazen, he primarily meant (1), although it really was not an issue ... and was all mixed together ... because for Dogen and until recent times, to sit (1) typically meant to sit (2). Therefore, folks sometimes missed Dogen's point and interpreted his meaning as to be first and foremost sitting in the physical posture of the Lotus itself for posture's sake. I do not believe that was his emphasis.

For example, in writings such as Fukanzazengi, there is some description of how to sit in the Lotus Posture. That is to be expected, because one is explaining to a beginner how to sit. However, the entire emphasis of the writing is the sacredness of the whole doing itself, the comfortable and balanced posture plus the mental aspect of dropping judgments and categories.

For sanzen (zazen), a quiet room is suitable. Eat and drink moderately. Cast aside all involvements and cease all affairs. Do not think good or bad. Do not administer pros and cons. Cease all the movements of the conscious mind, the gauging of all thoughts and views. Have no designs on becoming a Buddha. Sanzen has nothing whatever to do with sitting or lying down.

At the site of your regular sitting, spread out thick matting and place a cushion above it. Sit either in the full-lotus or half-lotus position. In the full-lotus position, you first place your right foot on your left thigh and your left foot on your right thigh. In the half-lotus, ... Once you have adjusted your posture, take a deep breath, inhale and exhale, rock your body right and left and settle into a steady, immobile sitting position. Think not-thinking. How do you think not-thinking? Non-thinking. This in itself is the essential art of zazen.

The zazen I speak of is not learning meditation. It is simply the Dharma gate of repose and bliss, the practice-realization of totally culminated enlightenment. It is the manifestation of ultimate reality.

http://www.berkeleyzencenter.org/Tex...nzazengi.shtml

If one looks at Shobogenzo Zanmai-O-Zanmai one sees that Dogen uses the Sino-Japanese term for Lotus Posture (結跏趺坐 Kekkafuza), yet the posture is really not what is being emphasized as much as the jewel that is the whole doing, the Buddha-ness of the whole event ... both body and mind, and that which is the balance of both and dropping both away.

Furthermore, the emphasis on Lotus is not as a way with pain and fatigue, but as a way that is "the body light", freeing of pain and fatique. In other words, I think that one can keep that same wholeness and sacredness of "crossing the legs" even if not literally "crossing the legs".

From: Zanmai ō zanmai

Abruptly transcending all realms, to be greatly honored within the quarters of the buddhas and ancestors—this is sitting with legs crossed. Trampling the heads of the followers of alien ways and the legions of Māra, to be the one here within the halls of the buddhas and ancestors—this is sitting with legs crossed. Transcending the extreme of the extremes of the buddhas and ancestors is just this one dharma. Therefore, the buddhas and ancestors engage in it, without any further task.

... It is rare to have clarified that sitting is the buddha dharma, that the buddha dharma is sitting. Even if [some] realize sitting as the buddha dharma, they have not understood sitting as sitting — let alone maintained the buddha dharma as the buddha dharma. This being the case, there is the sitting of the mind, which is not the same as the sitting of the body. There is the sitting of the body, which is not the same as the sitting of the mind. There is the sitting of the body and mind sloughed off, which is not the same as the sitting of the body and mind sloughed off.

The Buddha Śākyamuni addressed the great assembly, saying,

When sitting with legs crossed,
Body and mind realizing samādhi,
One’s majesty, the multitudes respect,
Like the sun illumining the world.
Removed, the lethargy clouding the mind,
The body light, without pain or fatigue;
The awareness similarly light and easy,
One sits calmly, like the dragon coiled.
King Māra is startled and fearful
On seeing depicted [one] sitting with legs crossed,
How much more [on seeing] one who realizes the way,
Sitting calmly without stirring.”

Thus, King Māra is startled and frightened to perceive the depiction of [someone] sitting with legs crossed — how much more [someone] actually sitting with legs crossed; the virtue cannot be fully reckoned. This being the case, the merit of our ordinary sitting is measureless.

... Clearly we know that sitting with legs crossed is the king of samādhis samādhi, is realization and entrance. All the samādhis are the attendants of this king samādhi. Sitting with legs crossed is upright body, is upright mind, is upright body and mind, is upright buddha and ancestor, is upright practice and realization, is upright head, is upright vital artery.

Now crossing the legs of the human skin, flesh, bones, and marrow, one crosses the legs of the king of samādhis samādhi. The World Honored One always maintains sitting with legs crossed; and to the disciples he correctly transmits sitting with legs crossed; and to the humans and gods he teaches sitting with legs crossed. The mind seal correctly transmitted by the seven buddhas is this.

The Buddha Śākyamuni, sitting with legs crossed under the bodhi tree, passed fifty small kalpas [eras of time], passed sixty kalpas, passed countless kalpas. Sitting with legs crossed for twenty-one days, sitting cross-legged for one time — this is turning the wheel of the wondrous dharma; this is the buddha’s proselytizing of a lifetime. There is nothing lacking. This is the yellow roll and vermillion roller [that holds all the Sutras and Commentaries]. ...

http://scbs.stanford.edu/sztp3/translations/shobogenzo/translations/zanmai_o_zanmai/translation.html

So, most important is to sit with such an attitude of Zazen as a sacred and complete act, your sitting as the Buddha Sitting, no other place or thing to do in all the universe, sitting in a light and balanced way ... than to just cross the legs like a pretzel and wait for some mysterious effect from that alone.

Gassho, J

[Taigu]

We sit croos~legged until we can't
and then
and then only
we sit cross~legged
as always


g.....


T.

[Daitetsu]

Thanks a lot, Taigu and Jundo!


Gassho,

Timo

[Emmet]

Like LimoLama, there's something wrong with my knee; I can sit Burmese quite comfortably, but I may not be able to straighten my knee when I get up, or walk for a week. Like Daido, I was surprised to see just how attached I was to form rather than substance; I felt quite humiliated to sit in a chair, like it was a personal failure of some sort. Once I saw it for what it was, as it was, zazen became just zazen again.
Huh.
Wonder what other aspects of ritual and ceremony which I'm so fond of I'm hung up about.

[YuimaSLC]

G'Day Treeleafers.

I learned something today that might be of interest to someone who is having great difficulty sitting in almost any position. I discovered a very valuable resource....water....a swimming pool to be exact, when playing with my grandkids in a community pool.

I sat seiza in about 2-1/2 to 3 feet of water. You can sit with knees close together or spread apart. I recommend the latter because it creates a gentle tripod for stability.

The water keeps you buoyant enough (and probably body mass has something to do with just how bouyant you are. It seems that the more shallow the water the less buoyant (mass and water displacement....and all that)

I found there really isn't pressure of gravity from sitting on your
feet. Everything floats just enough (comfortably cushioned) especially when you find the right depth, that you remain fixed in a stable position but you aren't putting pressure on limbs.

Now I'm not here to tell you how you are possibly going to work a swimming pool into your daily sitting. But, try it. Then be resourceful if it could help you. Meaning, I recommend it to those who are having major difficulty sitting (including benches, chairs, etc.)

Kindly

Richard
P.S. Please.....this isn't anything about samadhi tanks and sensory deprivation. It's about helping those who have unendurable pain in their limbs.....or anyone who is interested to experience what I am describing.

[Daitetsu]

Hi Richard,

This sounds interesting. The thought of zazen in a swimming pool never ocurred to me, but what you say makes sense to me.
Thanks for sharing!

Gassho,

Timo

[Jinyo]

Richard - thank you - I have a delightful image in my mind now of swimming pool Zazen

I am thinking though we need to somehow drop the notion of 'major difficulty sitting'. This thought was a great stumbling block for me at the beginning because I can't maintain a sitting position at all. I've come to realise that Zazen has nothing to do with a particular kind of sitting position - though if one can 'sit' this obviously helps in a certain way in finding a centre of balance and focus.

If I can give an example - back to swimming pools and water. My little granddaughter was telling me how she had learnt to 'float' in her swimming lesson. She was very excited about her ability to achieve this. Listening to her description of 'floating' I realised she was completely at one with the experience of floating - how she had achieved this was off secondary importance.

So yes, sitting, lying down, floating in water, whatever feels possible - with good intention - and then utterly unimportant when dropping off body and mind.

Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

There is also this, but I would think only for very short sittings ...

[Shokai]

Oh, she's been there for a long time. Look how white and wrinckled her palms and feet are . I'd imagine she's not even breathing

[Mp]

Or maybe we can do this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw5zVZ0Uma4