A few questions about this practice

[alan.r]

The only thing I would add here, to all these very good answers, is as soon as you want to be more compassionate toward people, it will likely be more difficult for you to be more compassionate toward people. Or, at the very least, it will be contrived. Why? Because you're fighting yourself, trying to be better, trying to be kind to others, and there's a kind of insincerity in that: you know, you're doing it for you, because you think you should. The problem (not even a problem) probably isn't that you're not compassionate toward people. The problem, as others have said, is the idea that people can somehow better take care of themselves than animals, that people are different from animals - this is just concept, idea. And while ideas are useful, they're also barriers. So, I'd say, don't try to be more compassionate toward people. Don't fight, don't try to improve yourself because that's just for you. Instead, allow your own barriers, your own concepts, your own ideas of yourself to fall away - when we do that, we are compassionate toward everyone because there are no ideas of separation between you and i, person and animal, etc, and that is a great improvement.

As for the coffee thing, Robert Aitken: "the things of this world are not drugs in and of themselves. We make them drugs by our use of them." Even meditation, zazen, can become a drug. As an added note, one of the precepts is to refrain from intoxication, but when lonely Ryokan had a visitor, they enjoyed their sake together.

gassho

[Jundo]

I drink coffee every morning. I've read some Buddhists don't drink caffeine because it's seen as altering the state of mind, so I'm wondering what you guys think about this?

A bit more on the Zen connection to tea, a writing by the great Rinzai Master Eisai (who is said to have brought tea to Japan from China for the first time), extolling the virtues of the tea leaf ... perhaps a bit much, due to the effects of all that caffeine!

The oldest tea book in Japan, Kissa Yojoki – How to Stay Healthy by Drinking Tea, was written by Eisai in 1211. Eisai was a famous Zen Priest, who had brought tea seed from China to Kyoto in 1191. He had given the seeds to a priest named Myoe Shopin who had made then into Uji tea. In the two-volume book, which Eisai wrote, the priest begins by saying “Tea is the ultimate mental and medical and medical remedy and has the ability to make one’s life more full and complete”.

The book describes the positive effects that tea has on the vital organs, particularly the heart. It praises the value of tea as a medicine in curing indigestion, quenching thirst, avoiding fatigue, working as a stimulant, undoing the effects of alcohol, and improving brain and urinary function. The book also explains the parts of the plant and the appropriate dosages and administration for specific ailments.

http://books.google.co.jp/books?id=GwUaFBTlm4QC&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=Kissa+Yojoki&source=bl&ots=W2srF1vKPV&sig=6Rw4YN8EJJ2mW9JED7n6nqC2ZI0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=q7C1Uev0A8mBlQXUuYEI&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Kissa%20Yojoki&f=false

[Kokuu]

“Tea is the ultimate mental and medical and medical remedy and has the ability to make one’s life more full and complete”

My very English mother would certainly agree with that pronouncement. Anything from a bad day up to one's spouse leaving is dealt with using her special mantra 'I'll just put the kettle on!'

I have a nice little book called The Book of Tea by Kakuzo Okakura which talks about the role tea plays and has played in Japanese society including in relation to Zen.


Gassho
Andy

ps. on adding the Amazon link it appears that the Kindle version of The Book of Tea is free!

[Amelia]

Yep! Book of Tea is free!

[Snowe]

I completely agree that by trying to be "better" I will be pretty insincere. I actually haven't been on here for a few days, partly because I'm sick and going through a "cycle" of depression that comes and goes week by week, but partly because, well...How could I ever change? My ideas about life and the so-called meaning of all of this are all twisted up and confused, I want to believe in an after-life, even in a god, if not an interfering one, but even there I can't because I haven't seen it, so it can't be real. However, when I die I don't want to be nothing, I don't want to lose my loved ones. I agree with most of what Buddhism teaches, and it makes perfectly good sense, except that I can't love everyone equally, and I'm not sure I'd like to try? You know, I figured out a long time ago that I'm sort of that quiet person, I look a lot younger than I am, I dress pretty sort of...innocently? People think I must be that shy-nice type, but if they knew what I was thinking...I know I'm not a nice person, probably not even a good one. I hold to my morals when they matter to me, but they seem to be pretty different than everyone else.

Anyway, I haven't been on here lately because I kind of thought, what was the point? I'm not a nice person inside, I don't know that I could change it. I suffer a lot from my attachments to things, like my loved ones and my ideas, but I'm not sure they aren't worth suffering for. Should we just let it be? I suffer for things and that's okay. But isn't that the opposite of this practice, to sort of "end" suffering by "ending" attachment? Or have I missed the mark. Sometimes I think of Buddhism as sort of cold, even though I've heard others say it allows them to live life more fully, I don't see how if we are...supressing?...our feelings a bit. I'm definitely one of those people who feels things super passionately, and then it burns away fast. I never know what I'll like or not like tomorrow, always changing my mind. I hoped I could learn to live with it, to let it pass, to sit with it, but I don't know if I'm really that strong.

I'm confused how there is an I, and not an I. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't, sometimes I don't want to. Who knows.

[Mp]

I completely agree that by trying to be "better" I will be pretty insincere. I actually haven't been on here for a few days, partly because I'm sick and going through a "cycle" of depression that comes and goes week by week, but partly because, well...How could I ever change? My ideas about life and the so-called meaning of all of this are all twisted up and confused, I want to believe in an after-life, even in a god, if not an interfering one, but even there I can't because I haven't seen it, so it can't be real. However, when I die I don't want to be nothing, I don't want to lose my loved ones. I agree with most of what Buddhism teaches, and it makes perfectly good sense, except that I can't love everyone equally, and I'm not sure I'd like to try? You know, I figured out a long time ago that I'm sort of that quiet person, I look a lot younger than I am, I dress pretty sort of...innocently? People think I must be that shy-nice type, but if they knew what I was thinking...I know I'm not a nice person, probably not even a good one. I hold to my morals when they matter to me, but they seem to be pretty different than everyone else.

Anyway, I haven't been on here lately because I kind of thought, what was the point? I'm not a nice person inside, I don't know that I could change it. I suffer a lot from my attachments to things, like my loved ones and my ideas, but I'm not sure they aren't worth suffering for. Should we just let it be? I suffer for things and that's okay. But isn't that the opposite of this practice, to sort of "end" suffering by "ending" attachment? Or have I missed the mark. Sometimes I think of Buddhism as sort of cold, even though I've heard others say it allows them to live life more fully, I don't see how if we are...supressing?...our feelings a bit. I'm definitely one of those people who feels things super passionately, and then it burns away fast. I never know what I'll like or not like tomorrow, always changing my mind. I hoped I could learn to live with it, to let it pass, to sit with it, but I don't know if I'm really that strong.

I'm confused how there is an I, and not an I. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't, sometimes I don't want to. Who knows.

Snowe,

Thank you for your honest post ... as I read it the thing that came to mind right away was, be easy, patient, and gentle on yourself. Things will come in time ... the seed (question) is there, so be patient and kind and let it grow.

Gassho
Shingen

[Jundo]

I completely agree that by trying to be "better" I will be pretty insincere. I actually haven't been on here for a few days, partly because I'm sick and going through a "cycle" of depression that comes and goes week by week, but partly because, well...How could I ever change? My ideas about life and the so-called meaning of all of this are all twisted up and confused, I want to believe in an after-life, even in a god, if not an interfering one, but even there I can't because I haven't seen it, so it can't be real. However, when I die I don't want to be nothing, I don't want to lose my loved ones. I agree with most of what Buddhism teaches, and it makes perfectly good sense, except that I can't love everyone equally, and I'm not sure I'd like to try? You know, I figured out a long time ago that I'm sort of that quiet person, I look a lot younger than I am, I dress pretty sort of...innocently? People think I must be that shy-nice type, but if they knew what I was thinking...I know I'm not a nice person, probably not even a good one. I hold to my morals when they matter to me, but they seem to be pretty different than everyone else.

Anyway, I haven't been on here lately because I kind of thought, what was the point? I'm not a nice person inside, I don't know that I could change it. I suffer a lot from my attachments to things, like my loved ones and my ideas, but I'm not sure they aren't worth suffering for. Should we just let it be? I suffer for things and that's okay. But isn't that the opposite of this practice, to sort of "end" suffering by "ending" attachment? Or have I missed the mark. Sometimes I think of Buddhism as sort of cold, even though I've heard others say it allows them to live life more fully, I don't see how if we are...supressing?...our feelings a bit. I'm definitely one of those people who feels things super passionately, and then it burns away fast. I never know what I'll like or not like tomorrow, always changing my mind. I hoped I could learn to live with it, to let it pass, to sit with it, but I don't know if I'm really that strong.

I'm confused how there is an I, and not an I. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't, sometimes I don't want to. Who knows.

Hi Snowe,

I would say that our practice is about "non-attachment", not "detachment". We need not be "cold" toward life or people. I might give as an example our loving deeply those we are with when with them, crying when they leave us ... yet simultaneously being open and allowing of the change, also content to let go. Perhaps it is the way we deeply embrace an experience when happening, but moving on and not clinging to it when it is over. We savor our ideas and feelings, but don't become their prisoner.

I would also say that we feel Compassion toward all sentient beings, perhaps "love" the human race. However, I would not say that there is call to love each and every person we encounter equally.

I do not know exactly what happens when we die ... but sure as shooting, we Buddhists believe that we don't become "nothing" nor "lose" our loved ones (because we are all already everything).

Your mind seems to be filled with a lot of drama and self-imposed soap opera. This is precisely the kind of self created crap that we let go in Zazen.

Gassho, J

[Kokuu]

You mind seems to be filled with a lot of drama and self-imposed soap opera. This is precisely the kind of self created crap that we let go in Zazen.

From my experience with depression (not personal but being around others who have it), going 'inside' and over thinking is one of the symptoms of the illness. It may well be 'self-created crap' but seeing through that can be hard. Also feeling different and isolated.

Snowe, the wisdom aspects of Buddhism can sound hard at times and pain is something that will happen to all of us. One of the beautiful parts of Buddhism for me is seeing that pain is universal so our own pain connects us to others who are suffering and can soften us to be kind to both our own thoughts and those of others.

Another part of depression and illness that I have experienced personally is a tendency to see the suffering as unchanging and it being pointless trying. Things are harder to see clearly too. What you will be when you die I have no idea but the important thing is that you are alive now and have a choice on how to be. There is no need to try and force change but being a little kinder to yourself and others can help with the ever-changing bundle of thoughts and passions. Learning to sit with impermanence takes practice but you are not alone in this confusing world. Come or go, we are here.

Gassho
Andy

[Jundo]

From my experience with depression (not personal but being around others who have it), going 'inside' and over thinking is one of the symptoms of the illness. It may well be 'self-created crap' but seeing through that can be hard. Also feeling different and isolated.

Snowe, the wisdom aspects of Buddhism can sound hard at times and pain is something that will happen to all of us. One of the beautiful parts of Buddhism for me is seeing that pain is universal so our own pain connects us to others who are suffering and can soften us to be kind to both our own thoughts and those of others.

Another part of depression and illness that I have experienced personally is a tendency to see the suffering as unchanging and it being pointless trying. Things are harder to see clearly too. What you will be when you die I have no idea but the important thing is that you are alive now and have a choice on how to be. There is no need to try and force change but being a little kinder to yourself and others can help with the ever-changing bundle of thoughts and passions. Learning to sit with impermanence takes practice but you are not alone in this confusing world. Come or go, we are here.

Gassho
Andy

These are wise words. Thank you.

By the way, I suffered with depression for many years (although it lifted about 25 years ago, and Zen Practice was a significant part of the reason). I believe your description of depression is accurate in my experience.

Gassho, J

[alan.r]

I completely agree that by trying to be "better" I will be pretty insincere. I actually haven't been on here for a few days, partly because I'm sick and going through a "cycle" of depression that comes and goes week by week, but partly because, well...How could I ever change? My ideas about life and the so-called meaning of all of this are all twisted up and confused, I want to believe in an after-life, even in a god, if not an interfering one, but even there I can't because I haven't seen it, so it can't be real. However, when I die I don't want to be nothing, I don't want to lose my loved ones. I agree with most of what Buddhism teaches, and it makes perfectly good sense, except that I can't love everyone equally, and I'm not sure I'd like to try? You know, I figured out a long time ago that I'm sort of that quiet person, I look a lot younger than I am, I dress pretty sort of...innocently? People think I must be that shy-nice type, but if they knew what I was thinking...I know I'm not a nice person, probably not even a good one. I hold to my morals when they matter to me, but they seem to be pretty different than everyone else.

Anyway, I haven't been on here lately because I kind of thought, what was the point? I'm not a nice person inside, I don't know that I could change it. I suffer a lot from my attachments to things, like my loved ones and my ideas, but I'm not sure they aren't worth suffering for. Should we just let it be? I suffer for things and that's okay. But isn't that the opposite of this practice, to sort of "end" suffering by "ending" attachment? Or have I missed the mark. Sometimes I think of Buddhism as sort of cold, even though I've heard others say it allows them to live life more fully, I don't see how if we are...supressing?...our feelings a bit. I'm definitely one of those people who feels things super passionately, and then it burns away fast. I never know what I'll like or not like tomorrow, always changing my mind. I hoped I could learn to live with it, to let it pass, to sit with it, but I don't know if I'm really that strong.

I'm confused how there is an I, and not an I. Sometimes I get it, sometimes I don't, sometimes I don't want to. Who knows.

What Jundo said about the difference between non-attachment and detachment is the thing (thanks Jundo, for the reminder, by the way).

I would (and will) say this: don't worry about I or not-I. A plant, a weed, a flower, a dog, a cat, an ape, a rock, doesn't wonder or stress about whether it has a self or not. A river doesn't worry about where it's going. Where is there to go, you know? Like completely literally: you might have to go to the dentist today or to work, but no matter what, You are here, in and part of this universe; where is there to go, what is there to do? When there's nowhere to go, then you'll be naturally compassionate. It's good to want to be good to people, just don't get stuck on it: it begins a game, then a stress, then a failure. Just sit with nowhere to go and be with yourself. If you can be with yourself, you can be with others. If you can be with others, you can be with everything. You already are with everything and everyone; we are here with you; okay? No need to suppress feelings; if you're suffering, then suffer, and in sitting with it, you'll come to find it's not so bad. It's not about being strong (everyone can do this), but it is about being patient.

This can be a confusing practice. Remember: it's okay to be confused! When you're confused and know you're confused and don't fight that confusion: then you are the river with nowhere to go.

gassho

ps: sorry about the cheesy/cliched nature imagery and maybe my overly romanticized conception of all this...difficult to put into words.

[Joyo]

Snowe, please don't be so hard on yourself. I also struggle with depression and sometimes Buddhism can feel like a huge measuring stick of how I'm not measuring up. Just before I logged on here, I got mad at my dog for barking hysterically, I snapped at my husband, and I got angry at my son because, well, he was not acting very well. So then I beat myself up, but that's not a healthy place to stay. One thing I am learning from shikantaza is that it is **ok**. I don't live in those bad moments, I live right now. I apologized to my husband, gave my son a hug, and went forward. We all make mistakes. If you struggle so with depression, take it from me, this is the perfect place for you to be then and we are here to help.

Have you read the book by Thich Nhat Hahn called Practicing Peace? I just bought it, it is also transforming my life. So much good information in there to help with depression. One thing about Zen is that it will help you to look deep inside yourself, beyond the labels you or others use, beyond the mistakes and this and that, and it just helps you to clearly see inside, which becomes a beautiful thing.

with metta,
Treena

[Rich]

We all make mistakes. If you struggle so with depression, take it from me, this is the perfect place for you to be then and we are here to help.



with metta,
Treena

Yup, we all make mistakes. And we seem to focus on the mistakes instead of learning from them and moving on.

not expecting much so if one moment out of a hundred is clear and peaceful and full of wonder that's enough.

Just went for a walk and took this pic. Changed my day.
WP_20130613_004.jpg

[Jakugan]

@ Rich.

Beautiful picture. .

Gassho,

Simon

[Jundo]

One thing I am learning from shikantaza is that it is **ok**. I don't live in those bad moments, I live right now. I apologized to my husband, gave my son a hug, and went forward. We all make mistakes.

Lovely. This is why ours is a life-Practice. Like riding an ox ... sometimes nice riding. Ox and rider are one all along. Sometimes ox in a bad way or we slip off into the mud. Hopefully we can dust off, get back on the ox, continue the journey from there, trying not to fall off again.

Repeat as needed. However, we do become better riders with time.

[Joyo]

From my experience with depression (not personal but being around others who have it), going 'inside' and over thinking is one of the symptoms of the illness. It may well be 'self-created crap' but seeing through that can be hard. Also feeling different and isolated.

Snowe, the wisdom aspects of Buddhism can sound hard at times and pain is something that will happen to all of us. One of the beautiful parts of Buddhism for me is seeing that pain is universal so our own pain connects us to others who are suffering and can soften us to be kind to both our own thoughts and those of others.

Another part of depression and illness that I have experienced personally is a tendency to see the suffering as unchanging and it being pointless trying. Things are harder to see clearly too. What you will be when you die I have no idea but the important thing is that you are alive now and have a choice on how to be. There is no need to try and force change but being a little kinder to yourself and others can help with the ever-changing bundle of thoughts and passions. Learning to sit with impermanence takes practice but you are not alone in this confusing world. Come or go, we are here.

Gassho
Andy

Yes, the overthinking is very detrimental to your well-being. Shikatanza goes beyond sitting and thinking about all the junk in your mind, it's so beautiful to just sit and even as the thoughts and the stress and everything come up, there is then a way to be rid of all of that. I have found personally, that when you sit zazen and start to see beyond the junk in your mind, you become in tune with who you really are, deep down inside, beyond the depression.

As for life after death, I was raised in a strict Christian family so, let's just say the afterlife was a terrifying thing for me for a long, long time. It has been a journey to let go of all of that and I am thankful every day for Buddhism because it gave me much more peace about death. I also do not know what happens after death, but if we spend our lives worrying about what happens when we die, we'll never truly live. I've made it my goal to just live in the now, to live a rich, full life each day, and be at peace with that. It doesn't happen over night, everything with the mind takes time, much like if a person were very out of shape and wanted to become a champion bodybuilder--it takes a lot of time and dedication.

Gassho,
Treena