Throw everything away!!!

[Shujin]

Ah, this makes a lot more sense now. Thanks for clarifying

Gassho,
Shujin

Hi Shujin,



Actually, Eckhart is not the original forename of Tolle. His original name was Ulrich Tolle and he changed his forename into Eckhart. According to some people he did this as an allusion to Meister Eckhart.
Anyway, what are names?

Gassho,

Timo

[Patrick]

Throw everything away.

Thank You !

Gassho

[Jinyo]

I'd just like to check out a point of clarity.

Not familiar with Trungpa so checked it out - and found myself watching a discussion between Trungpa and Krishnamurti. Understand these are different traditions with their own flavour of teaching but was struck by something Krishnamurti said - that seems to relate to this thread.

Basically - the teaching was that there is always disorder within the mind - and that it is only by the observation of disorder that we can apprehend order (a sense of the absolute/unity?). Stillness come naturally when we have order (I'm paraphrasing here). We have to drop the 'me' because it is only the state of absence of 'me' that brings a sense of order.

Is this teaching the same as body and mind dropped away?

He also said it was central to ask the question 'Can the mind observe without memory and time?'

He seemed to be saying that if the above can be experienced we are observing without the 'me' - which I guess is to step beyond discriminating, etc?.

Anyway - no room for an extra observor, witness, true self, false self, - just emptiness?

Or am I twisting Krishnamurti to fit Zen?

Gassho

Willow

[Rich]

I guess everyone has there own way of explaining things. Even buddha said don't. Believe me experience your own truth. Throw everything away and what is left. Its right in front of you. You are it. And everything is it. Buddha nature or whatever you want to call it. Hope this didn't sound too zenny.

[YuimaSLC]

A few comments in this thread re-minded me of something I was reflecting on earlier today..... For those who have spent a even a little time at a monastery, you probably noted that trainees often go about activities at break-neck speed. Let's call it serenity without a second to spare. I remember a trainee who worked in the yogurt-making room rushing across the temple grounds, running that is, in knee-high rubber boots and apron to get changed in time for midday services. I wondered....what happens if he stumbles and falls flat on his face like Dodgers-legend Maury Wills sliding into second-base.

Obvious that all monastery adherents have responsibilities of various sorts. You might be in accounting, or one who figures out what is wrong with the back flow of the septic tank.

We guest lay trainees had it "easy".....there. However, our lives within family, careers, school, transportation, et al give us the opportunity to train at-a-pace that can help keep "self" from "being self".

I liked that comment about the "self wanting to see it's own funeral". I have certainly had that concept many times. If only this idiot would leave and let serene-reflection reveal....but, it implies
that some form of self is there to observe the reflection.

There is also a warning to trainees, and I've heard it a number of times here in the West, about people getting sort-of "slow" or "zombied out" within their activities. One of the implications
is that the trainee may actually be getting caught up in a self-awareness game where subject-verb-object aren't dropped away, but rather there is a self-validating-quietude of "oh, I am being sooo mindful right now, doing these activities just right. I am trying so hard to do it my best, and so on." It's me, me, me doing this, this, this. So, this "observer" quietly taking-it-all-in with a "there is...." still separates self and other.

And, I suppose that is what some of these other "mindful" disciplines alluded to in this thread end up doing. It's all about "me" being aware/mindful of observing "this".

But consider this: You are walking from the kitchen to the dining area with a plate of beautifully-colored drinks that you are proudly delivering to your guests, and your foot catches on the edge of a rug, you lose your balance, the platter and you go crashing about. Resulting in a mess, some embarrassment, and recovery. In that split second moment or two when things are topsy turvy, there is no allowance for consideration of me, or tripping, or glasses spilling. It just "is being". And, it's changing every sub-fraction of that very brief moment, before the ego jumps in with a whole lot
of conceptual mumbo jumbo about embarrassment, that damn rug, etc.

I once almost choked on a peanut butter sandwich while in formal mealtime in the meditation hall at a monastic retreat. There was an ego struggling to maintain composure, not wanting to be the outrageous fool who can't seem to eat his food right, but has to make a scene in order not to choke to death. Let's see....... choking? drawing unwanted attention to myself? Hmmmm. Something etched in memory to remind me what ego is capable of doing.

So, I'm not proposing that one act recklessly to "be real", because that's not a good idea or the solution; but also to say that the flip-side of taking it slow, careful, being precisely mindful about everything is also not hitting the mark; if you find that is what's going on in your training. Can you imagine dancing with that zombie-like mindfulness?

Gassho

Richard

[Myozan Kodo]

Gassho
Myozan

[YuimaSLC]

and then I am reminded by Dogen from Bendowa (The Wholehearted Way) "Buddhist practitioners should know not to argue about the superiority or inferiority of teachings and not to discriminate between superficial or profound dharma, but should only know whether the practice is genuine or false."

[Amelia]

I think that the lifestyle Krishnamurti described is very much like Zen practice. Reading his talks help me to better understand practice, unless I am misled.

I remember reading in Taking the Path of Zen that Aitken Roshi very much wanted to meet Krishnamurti and talk with him because he felt Krishnamurti's philosophy and Zen had a lot in common.

...Not familiar with Trungpa so checked it out - and found myself watching a discussion between Trungpa and Krishnamurti. Understand these are different traditions with their own flavour of teaching but was struck by something Krishnamurti said - that seems to relate to this thread.

Basically - the teaching was that there is always disorder within the mind - and that it is only by the observation of disorder that we can apprehend order (a sense of the absolute/unity?). Stillness come naturally when we have order (I'm paraphrasing here). We have to drop the 'me' because it is only the state of absence of 'me' that brings a sense of order.

Is this teaching the same as body and mind dropped away?

He also said it was central to ask the question 'Can the mind observe without memory and time?'

He seemed to be saying that if the above can be experienced we are observing without the 'me' - which I guess is to step beyond discriminating, etc?.

Anyway - no room for an extra observor, witness, true self, false self, - just emptiness?

Or am I twisting Krishnamurti to fit Zen?...

[Jinyo]

Thanks for that Amelia. I watched another discussion and although Krishnamurti forgoes all 'religions' what he says sounds the same as Zen. In some respects he didn't seem to realise that his philosophy mirrors Zen but after reading about his background ( groomed by the Theosophical society to be a world leader/saviour) I can understand his distancing himself from all labelling/doctrines (as a reaction to what had been put upon him).

His work on education - freeing children to discover their own minds/answers liberated from indoctrination - is inspiring.

Gassho

Willow

[McGettigan]

Thank you for this teaching. I've added it to my favorites and will no doubt need to return to it from time to time!

Gassho,
Mc.

[Amelia]

Thanks for that Amelia.

You're welcome.

I watched another discussion and although Krishnamurti forgoes all 'religions' what he says sounds the same as Zen.

I have always felt the same way. In fact, I think I can attribute my discovery of Zen philosophy through reading about Krishnamurti and related subjects.

In some respects he didn't seem to realise that his philosophy mirrors Zen but after reading about his background ( groomed by the Theosophical society to be a world leader/saviour) I can understand his distancing himself from all labelling/doctrines (as a reaction to what had been put upon him).

I wonder if he knew that his teachings were similar to zen, and simply felt it very important to reject all ties bound up by labels and images. In zen, we also try to live without the duality of your way versus my way, etc, so even though we call it zen, what can be called zen is not zen, right?

[Jinyo]

Amelia wrote

I wonder if he knew that his teachings were similar to zen, and simply felt it very important to reject all ties bound up by labels and images. In zen, we also try to live without the duality of your way versus my way, etc, so even though we call it zen, what can be called zen is not zen, right?

I wonder too Amelia - I don't know enough of his work to be clear on it.

What really strikes me about Krishnamurti is his fire and passion. He also has a very strong intellect and questions 'everything' in a very precise and disciplined manner. In this respect I feel he is a philosopher above all else.

Thanks for your feedback - I feel encouraged to read some of his work now

Gassho

Willow

[Taigu]

Throw everything...


People thinking there is something bigger, better, whatever...don t get the teaching


THROW EVERYTHING AWAY!!!


gassho



Taigu

[Taigu]

And,even if you are not happy,that great verbal and eloquent Krishnamurti would be my last choice for anything. When I was a teenager I thpought he was a great master. Now, i would receive teachings from anybody but not that great guy. Too verbal, too holly, too ...

In front of Trungpa he is but a bundle of beliefs.


In a dokusan, he is out,before opening his mouth


Please go and see for yourself. No need to believe the fool I am.

Gassho


T.

[alan.r]

For Amelia and Willow, there's always the other Krishnamurti, if Jiddhu displeases. UG's much more of a "throw everything away" type guy. I think one of his phrases was something like "tell them there's nothing to get" or something.

I don't know. This probably isn't the thread for this, but I find myself watching less and less videos, reading less and less about these things, except for a few small things. Just sitting is also just an idea - I have no idea what it even means anymore, but I do it day after day. I remember when I first began, it was a struggle, then it was beautiful, now I have no idea. Maybe I'm just in an apathetic/sad place. The one thing I've gotten without getting anything is that there are things I do that are particular to me and that I like doing and some of that includes trying to be nice to other people.

I don't even know what to throw away anymore, which probably means I'm so far from what Dogen calls having the way-seeking mind, like a hawk trying to fly to the moon.

Anyway, all I meant to say was that these guys are both working from very different traditions than that of zen.