(NOT QUITE) PEACE IN E-SANGHA: Need your advice

[Jun]

Excellent news Jundõ.

Anyway, better to be there and speak the truth, then to have nobody there to do so. I think.

Absolutely.

[paige]

Hello Enchentez,

I, too, have often been quite unpleasantly surprised with the tone of Mr Smith's posts. However, I don't believe that his consumption of alcohol violates his precepts. Tibetan Buddhists (at least Mr Smith's sect, and some others) include alcohol in some rituals.

Not sure why I felt the need to defend Mr Smith here (I really don't like him).

I'm glad you managed to work out a reconciliation, Jundo.

[enchentez]

Good luck in that, Jundo.

My experience has been that the admins make up and break their own rules as they go along, and don't care whether one is careful to not cross the line when speaking the truth. They just move the line closer and call it a foul anyway.

They also will act as agents provocateur and post baiting questions or statements in the forum or privately under aliases or by proxy. Be careful.

[enchentez]

Hi, Paige,

The context I remember Mr. Smith's mentioning his use of alcohol in the forum was not as a part of ritual forms -- though any such rituals would not have been something that the Buddha taught, encouraged, or engaged in -- rather, Smith was expressing his love for wine for personal enjoyment. I normally wouldn't give something like this a second thought, but Mr. Smith and those of his cadre hold themselves out to be in a legitimate position to judge others' practice and understanding, and to judge what is and is not Buddhism.

At work, gotta run...

[Jundo]

For purposes of personal disclosure, I see no problem with moderate wine and beer consumption, if in moderation and not anywhere near Zen sitting time (or while operating heavy machinery). I believe that a glass of red wine or two is healthful. We can get to this in greater detail when we get to our discussion of the Precepts. There are various interpretations on the degree of strictness there, and the meaning of the Precept. Of course, if someone has a problem with alcohol, they should not imbibe at all.

Gassho, J

[paige]

Hi Jundo,

I'd heard that Japanese Buddhists, in general, tend to be pretty tolerant of moderate consumption of alcohol. I'd also heard that this was largely due to rice wine being a sacrament in Shintoism. Does that sound right?

[Jundo]

Hi Paige,

Yes, it sounds right to me. I have filled the beer glass of the "Pope" of the Soto sect at a New Years party at Soji-ji head temple, and also shared drinks with other Zen priests in Japan. I am not sure about the direct "Shinto" connection, but there is no hard rule about alcohol in Japan. (My own teacher, Nishijima, does not drink, and opposes drinking).

Interestingly, the Precept is often literally translated with amphasis on --selling-- wine or alcohol or other intoxicants, not personally imbibing. However, it is also interpreted to mean selling any "line of baloney" that deceives or "intoxicates" the mind. Here is a typical example of this reasoning if you are interested, although a little long (it is from Austin Zen Center) ...

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cacheD ... d=28&gl=us

Gassho and Bottoms Up, Jundo

[Jun]

In our "tradition" we don't consume alcohol at all - zero, zip, zilch, nai - not even sakẽ.

[Ankai]

Interestingly, the Precept is often literally translated with amphasis on --selling-- wine or alcohol or other intoxicants, not personally imbibing. However, it is also interpreted to mean selling any "line of baloney" that deceives or "intoxicates" the mind. Here is a typical example of this reasoning if you are interested, although a little long (it is from Austin Zen Center) ...


Don't you sort of figure that it just... means what it says? Like... where it says it's a vow not to use intoxicants, that's really all it is- a vow not to ue intoxicants?

[Jundo]

Don't you sort of figure that it just... means what it says? Like... where it says it's a vow not to use intoxicants, that's really all it is- a vow not to ue intoxicants?

Have to run today (I am in a retreat), but wanted to say quickly that I agree that it probably means "do not use intoxicants". I also think, though, that the Precepts are not Commandments from on high, but arrows or frameworks for a healthful, helpful and harmless life. So, there is some flexibility to interpret these things within moderation. Some schools of Buddhism are strict constructionists, and also emphasize a degree of denial of the senses more than others (expecially in a monastic setting where, of course, it is appropriate). We had a couple of nice threads on this in the past, and will go into all this in great detail when we begin our study for Jukai in the coming weeks.

viewtopic.php?t=127&highlight=precepts

viewtopic.php?t=169&highlight=precepts

viewtopic.php?t=40&highlight=precepts

Gassho, Jundo

[Ankai]

Have to run today (I am in a retreat), but wanted to say quickly that I agree that it probably means "do not use intoxicants". I also think, though, that the Precepts are not Commandments from on high, but arrows or frameworks for a healthful, helpful and harmless life.

Of course. I see it more as advice, (except that there is a vow involved in some instances) than unbroachable law, and of course it's open to interpretation. I just figure if it says that if you want good results from your experience with meditation, don't drink, then that's pretty much what it means.
If I tell my kids, "Don't run headlong into the brick wall behind the garage," and they do it anyway, or find ways to do it that minimize the resultant damage, then I'm not going to despise, abandon or (usually) punish them, I'm going to look at them after they ram the wall and say, "Well, that was really stupid, wasn't it?"
I see this particular vow more or less the same way.

[enchentez]

I'm not sure if I was clear about my empasis on this issue -- it's not at all the interpretation of the precept itself, but the selective literalism that is applied by the administrators of that forum as they deign to decree by caveat and enforce their rather arbitrary and self-serving interpretations of what Buddhism is and is not upon unfortunates who wander into their territory.

Another example is that several moderators, including a moderator-bhikkhu, in that forum have admitted -- word for word -- to ascribing to Sati's heracy that "consciousness transmigrates from life to life, and is that which thinks and feels and receives the fruits of previous deeds", for which the Buddha soundly thumps him in MN 38. I find it rather disturbing that this group is attempting to shape the face of Buddhism in their own image by force through their presence on the internet, even as they ascribe to speculative beliefs that are not even in line with what the Buddha actually taught.

BTW, I was under the impression that moderator Lisa Mann was a Soto practitioner -- was that mistaken...?

[Jundo]

Hi,

Malcolm [Namdrol] wrote and asked me to post the following. No reason to criticize. Gassho, Jundo

Dear Jundo:

How are you and happy new year.

Please correct this misperception:

"To make a long story short, the administrators were eventually persuaded (by some outside pressure, I believe) to re-invite my joining"

There was no outside pressure to readmit you. Zero. I decided to readmit you myself against all protest of all moderators at E-Sangha. No one else expressed an interest in having you reinstated apart from your supporters at e-Sangha.

The reason you were reinstated is that I have shown clemency to others and personally felt it would be unjustified not to extend that clemency to you. In short, as a Buddhist, I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt until they prove to be utterly recalcitrant.

As far as wine goes-- I happen to like very good wine-- wine that is far too expensive for me to afford on a regular basis. You may please clarify on your forum on my behalf that in general, in the Tibetan Buddhist view, it is only intoxication that leads to mindless behavior which involves an infraction of one's lay vows. Even so, drinking in general is considered a non-virtue, even if it is not a breakage one's vows. So yes, I like a _good_ glass of wine on occasion, and would never pretend to anyone that it is a virtuous activity, even if drinking wine does not involve a necessary infraction of lay vows.

Best wishes,

Namdrol

______________________

P.S. I would also add it has never happened that any moderator or admin at E-Sangha has used a sock-puppet account, that is posted anything under a false account for any reason, Whatever people may think of the management policies, or my person, at E-Sangha, none of us would ever do such thing. If I ever discovered that such a thing was happening, that moderator would be immediately banned per our policiy against dual nicknames.

Have a great new year,

N

[Longdog]

:lol: Well it doesn't surprise me that people are watching the conversations it is the great world wide web after all and you can read the threads here without sanga membership (can't you?), only have to be a member to post. I know e-sanga you can't even read the treads if not a member, cos I'm not (or planning to be) and I can't.

May be you'll be proved to be utterly recalcitrant yet with your sidewinding 'lawyer speak' :lol:

Good on you for posting his message to you anyway and good on him for clearing that one up.

And a very good and clement new year to all (even on e-sanga )

Kev

[Ankai]

The reason you were reinstated is that I have shown clemency to others and personally felt it would be unjustified not to extend that clemency to you.

...did anyone else find this "I have shown clemency" bit to be a little... over the top? Like... someone did something wrong, everyone agreed, and it was just mercy that allowed continued conversation?
Images of Papal inquisitors...

No one actually said or did anything wrong. I think it's important to keep that at the forefront.
HAVING DIFFERING OPINIONS IS NOT WRONG, IS NOT A "SIN," AND CANNOT BE "JUDGED" BY ANYONE IF WE'RE ALL EQUALS.
...and we ARE.
Ugh. Just gross.