(NOT QUITE) PEACE IN E-SANGHA: Need your advice

[Ankai]

Hey Jundo
I applaud your decision not to return. I think the fact that you were considering it and the fact that you're even now asking for advice show tremendous humility, which in turn I find humbling.
However, a return there, in my opinion, would be wrong. I've got a few reasons, chief among which are these:
A return and a submission to the arbitrary rules they've established would indicate tacit approval of their fundamentalist stance, which, in tyour position as a Sensei would be wrong. you cannot give the appearance of supporting something you just don't, and can't submit to someone you believe to be wrong.
Secondly, such a return would indicate to those people that their errors are actually correct, and you might be the cause of further wrongful action on their part by appearing to agree with them. The Bible offers the advice, "As much as it lies with you, be at peace with all men." But that doesn't imply that you just roll over and accept the supposed authority of just anyone who wants you to submit.
Lastly, we are Soto Zen bcause we believe this to be the right path for us. How could a teacher submit to a "rule" that says basically that we're okay, but essentially wrong, and more correct and "better" buddhists ought to hold sway over us?
If I'd wanted to be a Tibetan Buddhist, I would be. But I'm not. I'm a Zen Buddhist. I'm Zen because it's what I believe and feel in the depths of my soul... not because someone from another tradition who beieves himself and his beiefs to be superior to me and mine said I was allowed to.
I'm not going into a long list of why I find Soto Zen superior to other forms of Buddhism, or why even within the Mahayana community I find Zen to be the best approach. But I will say tha I DO, and I don't need the approval of a Lama, Monk, or anyone else to feel what I do.
If you return to E-Sangha under the conditions they demand, you'll be giving tacit approval to the superiority they already seem to believe they have, and while no fight or debate is really necessary, your submission to people who are in no way in authority over you would be wrong. And it would be an even worse mistake because in your position, it's assumed that in such matters you also speak for your students. Unless you'd feel comfortable telling one of us here to submit to those bizarre regulations, I don't think you going back yourself is a good idea.
Lastly, those rules are COWARDLY. Unless you want to teach that fear of the "other" is a good thing, the example they're setting isn't one you ought to be a representative of.
These are just my own thoughts, but I've been through something similar and had to reason this stuff out myself in the past.
I hope something I said was written so it made some sense.

[Jundo]

I am considering (with some others) initiating a peaceful campaign regarding E-Sangha, uniting several Buddhist schools, under the slogan "Religious Intolerance is Un-Buddhist - PLEASE BOYCOTT E-SANGHA, An Intolerant Buddhist Community".

Something doesn't sit right with me in the bolded part, Jundo. Seems to kind of stoop to their level. I'd prefer if you found a way to use this as an education tool. I asked a few questions in the other thread on this. I'm sure there's lots of people out there who would benefit from some answers to those questions from the Soto Zen point of view. Maybe your campaign should be simple: something along the lines that people new to Buddhism should be forewarned that not all Buddhist sects are properly represented at e-sangha (particularly Zen, Tendai, etc.). Then link people to legitimate texts on the internet that are considered mainstream Soto Zen. You could even bullet point some of the points of contention: rebirth, other earthly realms (and associated beings), etc. Stress that the main point of Soto Zen is zazen, etc. etc.

I hope I'm not being too demanding for a new person. :lol:

Hi Tracy,

Thank you for your scientific mind and analysis of the problem. :-)

Maybe a "A PUBLIC CAUTION REGARDING E-SANGHA BUDDHIST COMMUNITY" webpage would be a good public service, doing what you say: Providing a description of the problem and various alternatives. It would be a service to people who are, for example, new to Buddhism and are not aware of problems with the information available there?

Gassho, Jundo

[Steve]

I believe that individuals and organizations that practice wrong speech and take wrong action will eventually author their own failure.

I do not believe that anyone's immortal soul will be in peril by participating in discussions at e-sangha. I also do not think that many people will turn their backs on finding a path to practice if they are frustrated by an experience with e-sangha.

What is at question is how much time someone may waste before deducing that some representatives of e-sangha follow a narrow path.

As such, I tend to echo Rev's statement..."Be lamps unto yourselves". We can best shine a light on intolerance, wrong speech and wrong action through continued open and honest discussion. Signs and slogans calling for boycott serve to entrench sides.

Jundo: Please continue to do your work. The universe needs examples of intolerance to teach tolerance. I second Harry's motion. If any of us see an intolerant post from e-sangha, yell "SPLITTER!"

In laughter,

Steve

[Jun]

Hello Jundo,

Honestly I would have to say, "why bother?" and agree to what Rev. has said.

In earlier days I had many a heated argument with Tibetan and Chinese followers - and it got nowhere. They believe they are right - let them be. If "Buddhism" to them is all about who is a "real" Buddhist by way of which precepts they have taken then they have lost the plot as far as I can see.

Who cares which precepts Saicho had all later Japanese sects adopt? Are the precepts solely what constitutes Buddhism? They are getting their kesa all knotted up over which monastic rules one follows! How silly, how childish.

Let them be. Nothing can be gained by arguing with them. Tell them why you disagree with their attitude and let them be.

To them Buddhism is a fixed and unchanging teaching - I say that Buddhism is not a finished product. It is being constantly re-evaluated and modified to fit the cultures and followers it encounters.

As for boycotting E-Sangha - I would have to say no, don't stoop to their level.

In the Suttanipata the Buddha says, "Live in the world relying on the self alone as foundation, be freed from all things, depending on nothing." In the Dhammapada Buddha says, "The foundation of self is only self."

Monastic types with all their bickering and arguing over who is truly "ordained" and who is truly "Buddhist" should be locked away to let those of us more concerned with PRACTICE get on with it.

[Rev R]

An old saying is that one has to learn to crawl before one can walk. Sure we haven't taken a stand as a sangha against any of the major problems of the world, but we have taken stands as individuals. Now we have been asked to take a stand as a group against an intolerant mindset and it seems that people are just looking at it as "ho-hum" maybe as Jundo's petty vindictiveness.

Sure e-sangha is an internet forum, but it is an influential group and reflects a mindset in the international Buddhist community that I feel very strongly is against the values that we claim to uphold. You can accuse me of seeing things in black and white all you like, but I see no degrees of intolerance.

I see no difference in the mindset that certain Buddhist methods are second class (this includes Jundo, Nishijima, me and each and every one of you), and the mentality that caused man to commit atrocities throughout history. It establishes that certain people are inferior to others based on what they believe. While e-sangha may not be using bullets and death squads to silence the "inferior" belief, they are using censorship and censorship is the enemy of the free-thought that I feel is the core of the Buddha's teaching.

Jundo so far has not asked us to do anything but support him in this course of action. Is this going to solve the world's problems? Not in the slightest, but it is doing something to help make the world a better place starting in the larger Buddhist community.

As an avalanche starts with the movement of a single flake, drawing attention to the ugly face of intolerance within the greater Buddhist community can only lead to attention paid to intolerance elsewhere. We have to start somewhere our own back yard is as good as any.

Rodney

[Rev R]

oh before I forget...good to see you back online Junpei old friend.

[Komoku]

An old saying is that one has to learn to crawl before one can walk. Sure we haven't taken a stand as a sangha against any of the major problems of the world, but we have taken stands as individuals. Now we have been asked to take a stand as a group against an intolerant mindset and it seems that people are just looking at it as "ho-hum" maybe as Jundo's petty vindictiveness.

Sure e-sangha is an internet forum, but it is an influential group and reflects a mindset in the international Buddhist community that I feel very strongly is against the values that we claim to uphold. You can accuse me of seeing things in black and white all you like, but I see no degrees of intolerance.

I see no difference in the mindset that certain Buddhist methods are second class (this includes Jundo, Nishijima, me and each and every one of you), and the mentality that caused man to commit atrocities throughout history. It establishes that certain people are inferior to others based on what they believe. While e-sangha may not be using bullets and death squads to silence the "inferior" belief, they are using censorship and censorship is the enemy of the free-thought that I feel is the core of the Buddha's teaching.

Jundo so far has not asked us to do anything but support him in this course of action. Is this going to solve the world's problems? Not in the slightest, but it is doing something to help make the world a better place starting in the larger Buddhist community.

As an avalanche starts with the movement of a single flake, drawing attention to the ugly face of intolerance within the greater Buddhist community can only lead to attention paid to intolerance elsewhere. We have to start somewhere our own back yard is as good as any.

Rodney

I, for one, don't think Jundo is being petty or vindictive. What happened to Jundo would get to anyone because it is unjust. However, look around, has Jundo commercialized his site, is he setting up not-for-profits? Is there a motivation to get Jundo's goat (may be a southern expression)? This isn't about intolerance as much as power and materialism. There I said it, Bud told me to.

The response needs to be proportionate.

[Ankai]

Is there a motivation to get Jundo's goat (may be a southern expression)? This isn't about intolerance as much as power and materialism. There I said it, Bud told me to.

Oh, I think there's a motivation, all right. Same reason that in the Christian world, certain high profile ministershave to hack and slash at anyone who's not just like them... but under their authority.
Basically, it's a case of bad diamonds.
Ever see a Zircon? It's a man-made diamond. Same basic thing... carbon under pressure yeilds pretty, shiny crystals. Zircons just happen to be pressurized by man instead of millions of years of geology.
Now, a zircon may look pretty, flash the light nicely, and all that good stuff. You might even find it beautiful.
Until you see a zircon next to a real diamond. When THAT comparison is made, only the real diamond seems to shine. No jeweller will display the zircon next to the real diamond; the diamond will outshine it and make the zircon look cheap and fake every time.
that's the same reason people like Pat Robertson had to speak against Mother Theresa. It's the reason the Chinese are so afraid of his Holiness the Dalai Lama. And it's the reason the folks at E-Sangha want to silence Jundo. they talk a good game about exploring faith and adhering to Buddhist ideals, but when push comes to shove...
Nothing makes a counterfeit stand out like the presence of the genuine article.

[Komoku]

Speaking of pretty rocks...I wonder if the word "Zen" sells more T-shirts than the word "Loppon"?

[TracyF]

Maybe a "A PUBLIC CAUTION REGARDING E-SANGHA BUDDHIST COMMUNITY" webpage would be a good public service, doing what you say: Providing a description of the problem and various alternatives. It would be a service to people who are, for example, new to Buddhism and are not aware of problems with the information available there?

Perfect! The problem with e-sangha is not their views per se (although they don't work for me), it's that they write as though they speak with authority for all Buddhism. That's very misleading for impressionable new people. Some people may think those views fit theirs but a lot of people (like me) would look at e-sangha and say to themselves, "That's Buddhism? Fuhgetaboutit!" :wink:

[Kelly M.]

Jundo, for what it is worth I agree with and stand behind your discision to turn down E-Sangha.

As for your campain, I agree with Rodney:

An old saying is that one has to learn to crawl before one can walk. Sure we haven't taken a stand as a sangha against any of the major problems of the world, but we have taken stands as individuals. Now we have been asked to take a stand as a group against an intolerant mindset and it seems that people are just looking at it as "ho-hum" maybe as Jundo's petty vindictiveness.

Sure e-sangha is an internet forum, but it is an influential group and reflects a mindset in the international Buddhist community that I feel very strongly is against the values that we claim to uphold. You can accuse me of seeing things in black and white all you like, but I see no degrees of intolerance.

I see no difference in the mindset that certain Buddhist methods are second class (this includes Jundo, Nishijima, me and each and every one of you), and the mentality that caused man to commit atrocities throughout history. It establishes that certain people are inferior to others based on what they believe. While e-sangha may not be using bullets and death squads to silence the "inferior" belief, they are using censorship and censorship is the enemy of the free-thought that I feel is the core of the Buddha's teaching.

Jundo so far has not asked us to do anything but support him in this course of action. Is this going to solve the world's problems? Not in the slightest, but it is doing something to help make the world a better place starting in the larger Buddhist community.

As an avalanche starts with the movement of a single flake, drawing attention to the ugly face of intolerance within the greater Buddhist community can only lead to attention paid to intolerance elsewhere. We have to start somewhere our own back yard is as good as any.

Rodney

E-Sangha was the first forum I joined when I began practicing. Not knowing much about any particular tradition, I would post many questions in the non-sectarian sections such as 'Beginner Buddhism'. Of course, I would never get a straight answer. One reply would be from a Tibetan monk, the next a Zen practitioner, the next could be a new-age person who only read a few chapters off of Buddhanet.net. I found this to be very confusing :? .

Then I began to notice the arguing. Constant bickering about a rebirth, vegetarianism, sutras etc. etc. etc. Again, I could not understand at that point why there was so little consensus (neither could many of those doing the arguing I suspect).

Then I began to see the useless chatter (people using E-Sangha as a dating service etc) and the never-ending attachment to opinion (each person trying to out-meta the next; each trying to be more profound than the last).

Now I see this in-bred attachment to religion leading to this blunt discrimination. And this is not the only example. Even the vegetarians Buddhists in the vegetarian forums will bash meat eating Buddhists.

I was lucky as I became disenchanted with E-Sangha rather quickly. But I believe that website has the potential to do harm to beginners. And it has a lot of beginners! It seems to have a never ending flow of newbies (myself included) asking the same old questions, seeking the same advice, and many (from my observations) seem to get sucked into the same stagnant waters of misinformation, over-opinionism and discrimination.

I personally don’t think that I smear campaign is in anyone’s best interest (as gratifying as a little piece of me thinks it would be :twisted: ), but I can vouch from personal experience that an education program warning of the 'Three Stagnant Waters’© (that’s right Jundo, I’m coining my own term here :wink: ) would be a great service- not just with regard to E-Sangha, but Buddhism as a whole. Especially now with the popularity of on-line Buddhism.

That my opinion anyways, as someone used E-Sangha extensively as a raw newbie.
Gassho,
Kelly

PS- I once purchased a book titled “Buddhism for Beginners” expecting that such a broad title was probably going to provide a broad introduction to the subject… nope; it was exclusively an introduction to Tibetan Buddhism. Us newbies need to know what they are reading!

[Shohei]

ill chime in late here. I personally dropped e-sangha after Jundo's ban. not because they banned - thats thier own thing.. let them have at it. I have witnessed overzelous use of admin power and watched it ruin a great thing...The same will happen for that matter, it was the behaviour AFTER the ban.. the admins took a TAKE THAT PUNY ZENNIE! stance. not very "Right" speech or actions.. shit i know kids that play nicer than that
Many good points raised and i have a list of stuff i have issue with but Ill keep it short and sweet. Although I owe some one @ esangha 1 favor and that is posting about treeleaf, I do not think we need a presence there that is censored and constantly under threat of some form of punishment... im with the rev on the above, BTW. on all points.

Gassho
one great big flake :P

Dirk

[will]

My post was a little preachy, so I deleted it. From your experience and practice J, do feel this is the right thing to do?



G,W

[Jun]

"The problem with e-sangha is not their views per se (although they don't work for me), it's that they write as though they speak with authority for all Buddhism."

Hate to say it, but that is the Tibetan attitude speaking there. How many Websites, books, DVD's, and talks by the Dalai Lama and other lama-dama-ding-dongs posit that THEIR version of "Buddhism" is the TRUE™ and CORRECT™ Buddhism - nearly all.

But this attitude is not just within e-sangha - it is right across the board and can be seen within and between all sects of Buddhism from the earliest days to now. (Saicho's pointed criticisms against Shingon-shu, Kegon-shu, Sanron-shu, and Hosso-shu and his opinion that Tendai and the Lotus sutra were the MOST SUPERIOR teachings of Buddhism come to mind.)

I've been called a "fundamentalist Buddhist" a few times for trying to point out what are clearly cultural trappings within various Buddhist traditions. I've tried pointing out that much of the religious regalia that many cling to is against the teachings of the Dharma only to be told that I should shut my heretical mouth!

Some take the outward cultural trappings and the outdated views of the ancient teachers as being THE teachings - not to be questioned or criticised.


Oh, and thanks for the welcome Rodney.

[Jun]

My post was a little preachy, so I deleted it. From your experience and practice J, do feel this is the right thing to do?

G,W

Not sure if you are asking me Will, but I'll hazard an answer.

As practising Buddhists I believe it is the right thing to correct misconceptions and untruths about our practice. I offer a caution however from my own experience.

For quite a while I tried to correct the commonly held misconceptions and untruths that abound about Buddhist practice. But it comes with a price. Sometimes those commonly held misconceptions are hard for others to give up, and some would rather not know that what they have come to believe in is perhaps a perverted or incorrect version. Some will get hostile when they find that what they have believed in is being questioned or corrected.

My (typically Japanese) teachers advice - "Better to shut up and know that what YOU do is correct."