(NOT QUITE) PEACE IN E-SANGHA: Need your advice

[Murah]

Hello Jundo and everyone....Long time no see


I've been hovering around the blog and forums , just kind of looking and enjoying the posts that come up from time to time. However, I feel I must respond to what has happened recently and put in my two cents.

I believe the main argument with posting a banner or whatnot is whether we should alert people new to Buddhism ( like myself) that the E-sangha forums are a bit one sided in their views and re-direct them to more helpful websites . However, it must be said that without the E-sangha Forums, I would have never found Jundo and the treeleaf zendo! I just don't want to see something so simple blown out of proportions.

In the end, people really don't need a banner or a sign or anything..they'll just eventually find wonderful places like this on their own. Just go with the flow

If you build it...they will come

P.S. This is just an opinion of an 18 year old...nothing more , nothing less. ha ha

-Murah (Rcc)

[Gregor]

I'm so late in chiming in here, but I'll go for it anyway. . .

that "offer" from E-sangha was disgusting, it's pretty sad to see such intolerance being demonstrated by "Buddhists"

I think I have to agree with Kukai, ignoring this issue does not work, we ought to raise our voice over this a little and shine our light.

I'm very concerned about the the dearth of misinformation that is affecting Buddhism. I'm all in favor of attempts to educate people about this. Perhaps a full blown anti e-sangha campaign would be a bit much, but I do like Harry's idea of a regarding E-sangha sticky.

In closing Jundo, keep doing what your doing here, shining your light it's having a bigger impact and doing greater good for the dharma than you imagine. Don't let the close mindedness of a few "Buddhist" jerks get you down.

[Ankai]

Instead of harsh wording about boycotts, or even naming anyone specific on the "banner," how about something like, "Buddha is as Buddha does. Any time someone tells you what Buddhism 'HAS to be,' put one hand over your wallet and back slowly toward the door. Love your faith. Beware people selling a religion."

[Ankai]

OR, even more simple:




LOVE YOUR FAITH!
REJECT RELIGION!

[Martin]

I've been "away" for a couple of days due to work and looking after my son after his operation (he's doing really well) so I’m adding my thoughts late.

I think the consensus reached here is spot on. It's difficult, because many newbies to Buddhism do visit e-sangha first, so e-sangha do have the potential to mislead and scare people off Buddhism altogether.

Like many others here, I went to e-sangha first, but was soon scared off by the bickering, posturing and intolerance. And whilst, by definition, no one who made it here was put off permanently, there may be others who are put off Buddhism permanently. But even if so, who is to say they didn't find a path outside Buddhism that leads to the same place? And if, as a newbie, I'd come across a Protest or Movement to boycott e-sangha, I might just have viewed that protest as further evidence of Buddhism being divided and that might have made me go elsewhere outside Buddhism to join the church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn, or whatever.

Whereas by maintaining Treeleaf, Jundo, you are making a difference. What a contrast to e-sangha! I think it was Gandhi who said that if you want to change something, you must first be the change you wish to be.

Gassho

Martin

[Ankai]

I keep coming back to the slogans taught by Atisha Dipankara, who brought the complete Bhodichitta teachings to Tibet in the eleventh century.
Among the precepts he taught were these:
1) FIRST train in the preliminaries
2) Regard all Dharmas as dreams.
and # 19) All Dharmas agree at one point.

It seems to me that the very man who brought Tibet the teachings they've embraced taught in no uncertain terms that we should major in the majors and minor in the minors, and that any time the teaching becomes the object of veneration rather than its subject, one has traded Dharma and truth for a "religious" counterfeit. If that was the goal, Bussha could have achieved enlightenment through his austerities rather than through nothingness.
THEREFORE, Tibetan Buddhism (as presented by E-Sangha) has utterly missed its own mark. Their own earliest teachings taught the core of Zen... which they've rejected in favor of religion.
Amazing.

[Rev R]

I'm reminded of a story that is so fitting to both sides of this situation.

There were two monks who were forbidden from having contact with women. Whilst out walking one day a woman approached them and asked if they could help her across a river.

One of the monks hesitated, but the other one picked her up and carried her across the river and put her down on the other side. The monks continued on their way.

After a few hours, the monk who didn’t assist the woman was unable to hold his silence any longer and spoke out in anger. “Brother, our spiritual training teaches us to avoid any contact with women. What you did has bugged me for hours and I can’t stop thinking about it. You shouldn’t have done that, you know it is forbidden”.

In reply, the monk said “I put that woman down hours ago, why didn’t you?”

If we continue to harp on the flaws of the e-sangha administration, do we not fall victim to the same flaw?
:twisted:

[Jundo]

Oh, are you guys STILL talking about E-Sangha? I put that subject down a couple of days ago. :wink:


(we may go ahead with the 'educational webpage' suggestion though)

[Ankai]

I still think, though, that there's got to be a way to post the "educational" thing by saying something positive abiut Zen and our expression of it rather than saying something negative about theirs.

[Jun]

I still think, though, that there's got to be a way to post the "educational" thing by saying something positive abiut Zen and our expression of it rather than saying something negative about theirs.

I absolutly agree there.

[Jundo]

I still think, though, that there's got to be a way to post the "educational" thing by saying something positive abiut Zen and our expression of it rather than saying something negative about theirs.

Well, I hope that is precisely what Treeleaf Zendo is and shall continue to be for some time.

Gassho, Jundo

[Rev R]

I still think, though, that there's got to be a way to post the "educational" thing by saying something positive abiut Zen and our expression of it rather than saying something negative about theirs.

Not to mention that an extended hand to the newbies from those who have been around the block a few times (900 each in the case of the two Juns) says something very positive.

[Lynn]

Been away at my vacation home in Oregon but still need to just say my peace and I ain't gonna go for touchy feely.

Jundo, I'm very glad you have decided to simply walk on from further participation.

As for the "educational website"...bah!!! Smells of "sour grapes." A la, getting divorced and feeling that it's "only right" to "warn" women off the guy you just split from based on your sense of some kind of "justice" and "just wanting to help." :roll: Do not couch this in the package of "right speech." That's a crock. If you put that up you are just perpetuating the situation and looking for right points, not helping anyone. Put up a newbie FAQ regarding what it is you do here at Treeleaf, but forget mention of what anyone else is getting up to.

Let it go, Jundo. Really and entirely. Open the hand of thought and LET IT GO. Get on with the examination and liberation of what is going on in your own mind. The universe is self-correcting.

My $0.02, MNSHO, YMMV &c.

In Gassho~

*Lynn

[enchentez]

Sorry to dredge this business up again so late, I only just now discovered this website. I ran into the blog of Yuttadhamma, apparently a Theravada monk who has also been expulsed from eS under rather curious pretense, and I thought it might lend a bit of perspective to the issue, and also offer another contact point to bounce ideas off of.

The blog is at:

http://yuttadhammo.sirimangalo.org/post ... -e-sangha/

The text of the blog is:


Beware The Esangha (E-Sangha)

Aug 7th, 2006 by yuttadhammo

Here’s a funny story.

I’ve been involved for the past few years with the Esangha, an Internet forum claiming to represent all accepted schools of Buddhism. Since it attracts such a large number of visitors, I was happy to get involved in what seemed to be an accepting sort of environment.

Of course, I restricted myself mainly to posting in the Theravada forum, but soon found that though it claimed to be a forum for “discussing the teachings of Theravada Buddhism”, it was being used by the administrators as a means of pushing Mahayana Buddhist doctrine on those not otherwise so inclined.

Upon complaining, I was told privately of how the majority of the admin are Mahayana, they’ve been threating the few Theravadin moderators with expulsion whenever they disagree with the way things are run, and are completely unconcerned with how their actions are perceived by the forum members. Indeed, my complaints were replied to with statements like “Administrators have power over life and death.”

Expressing concern over this, and the potential for legal action against the Esangha forum as a result of their fraudulant use of the Theravada, I was accused of threatening the administrator and promptly suspended from the forum.

What a funny thing. Luckily there are other good Buddhist forums out there:

Web Sangha:
http://www.websangha.org

Sirimangalo Forum:
http://forum.sirimangalo.org/

The latter is Theravada-only… it’s always quieter that way


------------------------
(Me again)
I also thought it significant that Malcolm Smith denigrates the ordination of Zen priests with respect to the five lay precepts in light of the pointer that can be found on Bhikkhu Pesala's page warning about eS ( http://www.aimwell.org/Forums/forums.html ) showing an eS thread in which Smith admits to imbibing in alcohol. My own experience has shown no evidence of an effort to abstain from harmful speech, as well, in his interactions with those he disagreed with on doctrinal terms.

[Jundo]

Hi,

I apologize to everyone who offered such good advice a few weeks ago, when this issue bubbled up. I rather just let this matter sit for awhile, seeing what time would bring and letting the storm die down.

To make a long story short, the administrators were eventually persuaded (by some outside pressure, I believe) to re-invite my joining, and I decided that the best course of action would be to go back to E-Sangha (otherwise, there would be no Soto Zen voice there at all). However,my doing so has a twist: I vowed that I would continue to speak my mind and present Soto Zen teachings in an honest fashion, but I would oh-so-narrowly thread their rules of behavior. When I get to a controversial topic, I do it in a way by which my meaning is perfectly clear without need to say so (for example, when I hit upon some sacred cow, I start talking about "sacred bunny rabbits", and everyone gets the picture. Remember, folks, I was a lawyer before I was a Buddhist priest!). So far it has worked on some very delicate discussions (although, granted, we are only talking about a couple of weeks and I may someday be kicked off again).

Anyway, better to be there and speak the truth, then to have nobody there to do so. I think.

Gassho, Jundo