(NOT QUITE) PEACE IN E-SANGHA: Need your advice

[Jundo]

Dear Everybody,

Thank you again. These types of decisions should be made by discussion and consensus of the Sangha, I think. (In fact, they always have been in Buddhist history ... It was one of the Buddha's first rules he set out)

There were pros and cons on both sides, and the old card carrying ACLU retired lawyer in me had his trigger tripped. I do not care for social intolerance in its many forms. "Right Action" can have so many gray areas, and that was the case here. As Buddhists, we always need to ask ourselves when to keep quiet, when to voice opposition, when to undertake a boycott or a sit-in (or call Kung Fu Kane to clear the room). Based on the wise input from you guys, this seems like a case for the former, with a little bit of the middle ... but not the latter boycott and such. (Tracy's idea, however, really is good and sensible ... I need to think about that one).

A couple of comments really touched me ...

Kev said ...

One reason I came to Soto Zen Buddhism was that it doesn't seem to evangelical in it's approach and people just get on with sitting.

We have to keep that spirit.

Jim said ...

Leave the e-sangha to the e-sangha. With the treeleaf create light and not heat. I believe the seekers who come here are seeking light.

Yes, let's keep trying to do just that.

Tracy wrote ...

I'd prefer if you found a way to use this as an education tool. I asked a few questions in the other thread on this. I'm sure there's lots of people out there who would benefit from some answers to those questions from the Soto Zen point of view. Maybe your campaign should be simple: something along the lines that people new to Buddhism should be forewarned that not all Buddhist sects are properly represented at e-sangha (particularly Zen, Tendai, etc.). Then link people to legitimate texts on the internet that are considered mainstream Soto Zen. You could even bullet point some of the points of contention: rebirth, other earthly realms (and associated beings), etc. Stress that the main point of Soto Zen is zazen, etc. etc.

and

The problem with e-sangha is not their views per se (although they don't work for me), it's that they write as though they speak with authority for all Buddhism. That's very misleading for impressionable new people


There is something positive (not aggressive, and very constructive) about this idea, and I will give it thought.

a return there, in my opinion, would be wrong. I've got a few reasons, chief among which are these:
A return and a submission to the arbitrary rules they've established would indicate tacit approval of their fundamentalist stance .... you cannot give the appearance of supporting something you just don't, and can't submit to someone you believe to be wrong.

That is why I told them I am not coming back.

Steve said ...

What is at question is how much time someone may waste before deducing that some representatives of e-sangha follow a narrow path.

As such, I tend to echo Rev's statement..."Be lamps unto yourselves". We can best shine a light on intolerance, wrong speech and wrong action through continued open and honest discussion. Signs and slogans calling for boycott serve to entrench sides.

Jundo: Please continue to do your work. The universe needs examples of intolerance to teach tolerance.

Steve and Rev, let's keep the lamp lit on our own windowsill.

Jun wrote ...

Let them be. Nothing can be gained by arguing with them. Tell them why you disagree with their attitude and let them be.

To them Buddhism is a fixed and unchanging teaching - I say that Buddhism is not a finished product. It is being constantly re-evaluated and modified to fit the cultures and followers it encounters.

Very nice, Jun.

Kelly said ...

Then I began to see the useless chatter ... and the never-ending attachment to opinion (each person trying to out-meta the next; each trying to be more profound than the last).

It is so very fine that we have avoided this at Treeleaf. Let's do everything to keep it so.

You know, guys: This is the first time we made a "familial" decision like this. I think we did good. I think this is how we best should have handled this..

Now, let's get back to our sitting.

Gassho, J

[Hans]

Hi Folks!


That's what happens when one doesn't log on to Treeleaf for a few hours

Although the decision has been already made, please allow me to add some of my own brief thoughts on the subject.

Before I became a Zennie and took refuge in the three jewels, I had been very much involved in a different religious sub-culture for almost a decade (I still am involved, but for cultural, not for theological/religious reasons anymore). To cut the long story short, situations like the one described above by Jundo surfaced there as well, and not only once but a few times during my "active" time there. I learned one lesson: No matter how justified any kind of boycott or (for lack of another word) negative/defensive strategy is, it won't get you anywhere in the long run, unless you are prepared to put loads of time and resources into it (and even that can still lead to sometimes dubious results). Through making the Treeleaf tree stronger, we can accomplish a lot more than to try and pool resources in order to oppose something outside our own gates.

Leading through example. Whatever you want to call it. Just my experience for what it's worth.

Gassho,

Hans


P.S. Conan! What is best in life? Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women. ...

[Ankai]

[i]Hate to say it, but that is the Tibetan attitude speaking there. How many Websites, books, DVD's, and talks by the Dalai Lama and other lama-dama-ding-dongs posit that THEIR version of "Buddhism" is the TRUE™ and CORRECT™ Buddhism - nearly all. [/i]


Tibetan Buddhism is our own, Buddhist version of Roman Catholicism.
Heavy on regalia, ceremony, and dogma, and light on personal experience and deep meaningful personal practice. Get the words and ceremonies right. who cares what kind of THOUGHT goes into it?
That said, I loved John Paul II, and I love His Holiness the Dalai Lama. But though I do, I feel no need to submit to the absolute authority of eithr, nor do I feel a need to subscribe to the denominations they represent.

[Jun]

[i]Hate to say it, but that is the Tibetan attitude speaking there. How many Websites, books, DVD's, and talks by the Dalai Lama and other lama-dama-ding-dongs posit that THEIR version of "Buddhism" is the TRUE™ and CORRECT™ Buddhism - nearly all. [/i]


Tibetan Buddhism is our own, Buddhist version of Roman Catholicism.
Heavy on regalia, ceremony, and dogma, and light on personal experience and deep meaningful personal practice. Get the words and ceremonies right. who cares what kind of THOUGHT goes into it?
That said, I loved John Paul II, and I love His Holiness the Dalai Lama. But though I do, I feel no need to submit to the absolute authority of eithr, nor do I feel a need to subscribe to the denominations they represent.

Remember, the Dalai Lama WON'T be reincarnated into an area under Chinese control (he claims) as the People's Republic recently issued a proclamation banning tulkus from reincarnating without government permission! :shock:

[Bansho]

Hi guys,

Sorry for the late reply, my wife is feeling a bit under the weather and requires my attention.

Those conditions posed to Jundo by E-Sangha are simply ridiculous. (BTW, after having posted that thread 'Free Speech in Soto Zen Buddhism' I was also banned from E-Sangha and that thread was deleted). I guess for me the question is, what is more beneficial and less harmful, action or non-action? It’s not an easy question, but I think the latter may be the best route. I think people who are drawn towards highly idealized world views filled with myths and legends will ultimately seek out places like E-Sangha where they can live out their fantasies. If E-Sangha were to suddenly disappear, those people would simply go someplace else. On the other hand, people who reject the rigid dogmatism, supression of free speech, misconceptions and fairy tales propagated by those folks at E-Sangha will quite soon run into trouble there and leave (or be thrown out...) anyway. The universe has it’s way of sorting itself out.

Gassho
Ken

[Mensch]

Maybe I'm just inexcusably naive, but I used to care rather little about different traditions and practices. After all they're "just the finger" ... yadda yadda. That doesn't mean one shouldn't stick to one's preferred tradition's forms and methods but it does mean I looked at the quirks and magic of Tibetan practice for example as just some kind of "very elaborate bowing". This does of course not include abuse of power and religious chauvinism which no tradition is safe from.

Ironically, the Dalai Lama himself contributed greatly to my understanding of religious fundamentalism. During a lecture in Hamburg he answered a listener's question on religious fundamentalism (roughly): "What religious fundamentalists have in mind is obviously not religion." Simple, isn't it?

Jundo, I think that "offer" from E-Sangha is really a shame, unworthy of anyone who considers himself Buddhist. Any kind of public opposition or campaign would attribute an authority to E-Sangha that it obviously does not deserve. To beginners it might even nourish the misconception that Buddhism once more is about "believing the right things". I don't say this as a Buddhist only but also as an advertising professional.

I am not yet convinced that E-Sangha's conduct resembles the attitude of the Buddhist schools involved but I'll gladly learn if someone cared to guide me to further online sources of "Buddhist" intolerance. Thanks.

Off for sitting now,

Mensch


PS: It's nice to be among reasonable people. Really.

[Mika]

E-Sangha was first (foreign) Buddhist forum I stumbled into. I noticed many of the same things people have mentioned here and also got myself a little trouble when I tried asking precise questions about rebirth (after reading Nishijima's take on it for example). They practically threw that "Dogen writes so, so you must believe it too" to my face.

One of the Soto Zen moderators (Anders something...?) was kind enough to discuss the issue with me a little further through private messages (though I was left unsatisfied with his explanations of why we should believe in literal rebirth), but anyway I stopped visiting the site soon after that (and fortunately found my way here a little later, it's always nice to have more people with different cultural backgrounds).

Even though Jundo has made the decision against an outright boycott I still think that some kind of a "warning" for newbies might be in order. Like for myself E-Sangha is the first place many people seek out when they start googling for Buddhist discussion forums and even though some see the truth about them sooner or later it certainly wouldn't hurt if there was a website out there that told the other part of the story and discussed a bit of the many shortcomings of E-Sangha (and showed that there are indeed other views out there too that are just as legitimate as what they proclaim).

It doesn't have to be (directly) linked to Treeleaf, but if anyone is willing to take it upon themselves to build such a page I'm sure this sangha could contribute to it's contents.

I would volunteer but I already have too many "to be done soon" projects underway. 8)

And even though we won't as a community go into war against E-Sangha then individuals who want to take up actions against their intolerance could point people to that "Learn the Horrible Truth About E-Sangha" page. :twisted:

Ok, just kidding with the name. I think the "Lamp" metaphor would be really good to use for this kind of cases.

[..::walter::..]

Re: (NOT QUITE) PEACE IN E-SANGHA: Need your advice

under the slogan "Religious Intolerance is Un-Buddhist - PLEASE BOYCOTT E-SANGHA, An Intolerant Buddhist Community".

(maybe the slogan needs to be toned down a bit?).

... what do you guys think??

Gassho, Jundo

i think that "PLEASE BOYCOTT E-SANGHA" is too strong.

i suggest a banner (linked to a page whre all this sad things are explained) with the words of the slogan but without the boycott advice, if someone wants to join them after he has read what happens in that community he is free to do it.

i am happy to be here and do not be there

for you, i'm sure your zendo and forum will become more known and your words of wisdom will be listen worldwide :wink:

and.. don't be sad, because your sadness is also mine!!!

[louis]

Nice to see that we can come to a reasonable opinion here (and without my input! imagine that (0_^) ). I am not a fan of confrontation, at least not until one's preferred options are exhausted, and an educational FAQ here sounds like a good idea.

[will]

Jun
Not sure if you are asking me Will, but I'll hazard an answer.

Sorry. That was for Jundo Jun. I guess I'll use full names next time. Thanks for the answer though.

Gassho Will

[Rev R]

So I guess it's settled.

The solution is: Let this one be. Fair enough.

With second place: education
A few words: I liked Tracy's idea. It's something that I think should be implemented across schools and lineages. A unified front of the more "progressive" ideas if you will. It doesn't need to be in opposition to anything nor does it need to be an endorsement of one tradition over another.


Junpei,
You're quite welcome for the welcome. Also I would like to apologize for not catching your back during the last round of "fundie Buddhist bashing" at that other place. Though two voices probably wouldn't have done a bit of good since the knee-jerk response was already in high gear by the time I got to the discussion. Once again, apologies.

[Eika]

I love the idea of being more proactively educational on the forum. Some of these topics are confusing and a bit of clear explanation on them (even if the explanation is "we're not sure") would help newcomers as well as vets.
I think maintaining a positive voice, even in opposition to e-sangha, is critical. Their knowledge of the world is incomplete and so is ours. We, with our particular collection of faults, should forgive them for their particular collection of faults, while simultaneously being vocal about our views when they are challenged or misunderstood.

Bill

[Kukai Myoe]

Hi everyone. Jundo, I must admit I was saddened to hear of your new problems with Darth Namdrol & e-sangha. Myself, a few days back, I quit the place over personal insults. But was asked to reconsider my decision. I did so, partially because I heard peace had been made. Now I'm reconsidering my reconsideration. lol

I actually feel a boycott is a good idea. The reason why I don't agree with just ignoring them is that it does not work. Everybody who has been banned from there, or left over their hyper-orthodoxy, has ignored them. In the meantime, their internet clout has increased. A lot of new Buddhists are getting some rather warped ideas about Buddhism.

I agree that any boycott must have a positive message, otherwise we might see this backfire. Something such as "Celebrate Over 2500 Years of Buddhist Diversity."as a slogan, then a description of the boycott.

I realize that this is apparently over & done. However, I hope this issue would be reconsidered at some point in the future.

Gassho,

Kukai


p.s. As a lay follower of Shingon-shu & a Zen newbie, I find Namdrol's comments on Japanese lineages to be a crock of BS (Please excuse my Tibetan :lol: )

[Jun]

Junpei,
You're quite welcome for the welcome. Also I would like to apologize for not catching your back during the last round of "fundie Buddhist bashing" at that other place. Though two voices probably wouldn't have done a bit of good since the knee-jerk response was already in high gear by the time I got to the discussion. Once again, apologies.

Ah, not to worry my friend. All is good.

I like this idea suggested by Walter -

i suggest a banner (linked to a page where all these sad things are explained) with the words of the slogan but without the boycott advice, if someone wants to join them after he has read what happens in that community he is free to do it

.

I do believe education is the best cure. Misinformation can be destructive.

[Keishin]

e-sangha

Hellos to all:
I'm late to the party here, but I did have a few comments, more like a post script, I guess:

Narrow interpretations-- I've always found them to be very helpful for me. I've watched myself get all caught up in the 'smallness' and the obvious 'wrongness' of someone elses limiting/limited view but I've come to see the self-made trap that it is.
After all, precisely what is a view?
When I have time and energy seems like there are no end of windmills to tilt.
I'm sure here in cyber space, there are umptillions of odd places where people post authoritatively about every religion under the sun.
As far as I know, cyber space is big enough to handle it all.
As far as rebirth goes....I ask myself "OK, what if it's true?" What if I can remember my most recent previous life? So? So what! And what if I can remember dozens of them? So? So who cares anyway? It still comes down to this rightnowmoment, righthere, rightnow. Like having a dream in which certain things were understood and realized, and then you wake up, and can't remember the dream, but you do remember how the dreamfelt.
When exposed to narrow mindedness I get to experience again what narrowness feels like. Someone else's narrow views stifle, but my own narrow thoughts--feel so 'right' I can see the seduction of them--why people spend time and energy defending them--they get more 'real' when defended--but it's like pretending to have something in your hand to entertain your child--when the fingers are finally pryed open and there in the open palm is nothing--that there always was nothing there...there is the wondering about all the intensity and all the excitement--just where did it come from?

So much to catch up on, I'll just leave this thought here....

keishin