Way of the Snowball?

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  • Eric
    Member
    • Jan 2013
    • 19

    Way of the Snowball?

    Hello people, This is my first post here after watching several of the intro videos....and I will probably have more questions after viewing all of them.

    I dont have any experience or education aside from inheriting dozens of books on Buddhism and other traditions from my grandfather. This happened in a bizarre way I wont get into right now, but there is a book with a very bland cover called 'Dogen's Manuals of Zen Meditation' (University of California Press 1988) which has become the one I read most often.

    My other interest aside from zazen is bodybuilding. This might seem like an odd combination but I think it helps. When you do core exercises the torso becomes like a tree trunk...very solid and much less prone to slumping.

    Usually this works out as 30 minutes of sitting with a kitchen timer, followed by 15 minutes of deadlifts, squats, curls....then another 30 minutes of sitting. I feels good to have all that blood rushing through the legs when crossed.

    I've been thinking about how to make the sitting sessions longer and food analogies came up with a vengeance.

    1. Personally I think avocados are quite horrid. I know they are good for me, but its a struggle to eat one...and this is often what its like trying to sit still. I'm not a still person even waiting for a bus...always pacing back and forth like a caged tiger.

    2. Wonderbread tastes like nothing to me. Its not disagreeable, nor is it delicious...and zazen is like that too, sometimes.

    3. A good cupcake is a scintillating wonder and pleasurable to partake...you often read stories about rare events in meditation when outbursts of laughter or tears of extreme joy rise up and overpower the solemn propriety of the temple.

    4. Finally there is the business of consuming oxygen itself...not very
    interesting, but absolutely critical to life. And I wonder if zazen is like this too in some cases...cases where the monk feels like he cant live without it???

    Does this happen in sequence...the more time spent in zazen the less difficult it becomes, the more pleasant it becomes, and finally the more essential it becomes?

    This could also be imagined as a snowball rolling down a hill. At first its so small that pushing is required to get it started, gradually it has enough momentum to keep rolling on its own, faster and faster, larger and larger until no one can stop it. People start running for cover, friends and family are deserted, until it smashes into the ski chalet at the bottom of the hill...killing everyone inside!

    Just kidding... -Eric.
  • Tb
    Member
    • Jan 2008
    • 3186

    #2
    Originally posted by Eric
    Does this happen in sequence...the more time spent in zazen the less difficult it becomes, the more pleasant it becomes, and finally the more essential it becomes?
    Hi.

    Well, to be honest it will go up and down like an rollercoaster.
    Sometimes difficult, sometimes easy.
    Sometimes a good feeling, sometimes a bad feeling.
    Sometimes necessary, sometimes not so necessary.
    But in the end it's all good practice.

    Thank you for your practice.

    Mtfbwy
    Fugen
    Life is our temple and its all good practice
    Blog: http://fugenblog.blogspot.com/

    Comment

    • Nengyo
      Member
      • May 2012
      • 668

      #3
      I dont have any experience or education aside from inheriting dozens of books on Buddhism and other traditions from my grandfather.
      I started the same way

      My other interest aside from zazen is bodybuilding. This might seem like an odd combination but I think it helps.
      Not that odd of a combination. I just had a question on the ethics of bulking:


      When you do core exercises the torso becomes like a tree trunk...very solid and much less prone to slumping.
      True in the long run perhaps, but for me sitting after right after deadlifts is a wholly unpleasant experience. I still do it on occasion when I have to, but it isn't "fun" for me in any way.

      Finally, in regards to your analogy, Fugen hit the nail on the head, so I will simply back up his observations. Unlike bodybuilding, there is no goal in sitting. There are no "extra points" for sitting longer and no points deducted for squeezing in a shorter sit when you have to. Most importantly, I've only been sitting for about two years, but in that time there have been huge ups and downs. There are also ups and downs lifting, but with lifting you have a goal and a log book so you keep tinkering with things to move forward in your training. In sitting there is nothing to tinker with, nothing to track "progress," and no progress to make. This makes it wholly different than most other endeavours. So, to repeat the advice I was given, Just sit. Sit without regard to it becoming easier or harder, to it being good or bad for you, or any other such thoughts. Just sit.

      Oddly enough, If anything motivates me to sit on rough days now it is the Sangha here. Knowing that others whose lives are just as full of work, kids, plans, and school are going to sit today and that we all sit together is oddly motivating. More so than my original motivation, which was, "Damn I'm going to be good at this meditation stuff!" As always, take my advice with a grain of salt. There are people here with more experience sitting than I have being alive. Good luck!
      If I'm already enlightened why the hell is this so hard?

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 40693

        #4
        Originally posted by catfish

        Finally, in regards to your analogy, Fugen hit the nail on the head, so I will simply back up his observations. Unlike bodybuilding, there is no goal in sitting. There are no "extra points" for sitting longer and no points deducted for squeezing in a shorter sit when you have to. Most importantly, I've only been sitting for about two years, but in that time there have been huge ups and downs. There are also ups and downs lifting, but with lifting you have a goal and a log book so you keep tinkering with things to move forward in your training. In sitting there is nothing to tinker with, nothing to track "progress," and no progress to make. This makes it wholly different than most other endeavours. So, to repeat the advice I was given, Just sit. Sit without regard to it becoming easier or harder, to it being good or bad for you, or any other such thoughts. Just sit.
        Now, that's a Solid Core!

        Gassho, Jundo
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40693

          #5
          Originally posted by Eric

          1. Personally I think avocados are quite horrid. I know they are good for me, but its a struggle to eat one...

          2. Wonderbread tastes like nothing to me. Its not disagreeable, nor is it delicious...

          3. A good cupcake is a scintillating wonder and pleasurable to partake...

          4. Finally there is the business of consuming oxygen itself...
          The Buddha's monks would make daily begging rounds, taking whatever was placed in their bowl without discrimination. Here, we learn to sit ... to live ... with all of Life's banquet, the bitter and sweet, the tasty and the despised. There is a Sweetness that holds all of life's bitter and sweet days.

          Oh, the Buddha knew how to avoid the real poisons ... greed, anger and ignorance. But, apart from that, we sit with whatever is ... the gains and losses ... knowing Suchness without need of gain or loss. Gain and loss ... yet nothing to gain or lose ... At Once.

          I offered one of the "Always Beginner's" talks on running ... but it would apply to the gym as well ... Training for nothing for attain, thus Attaining All.



          Some days are easy, some days are hard (my experience in the gym too! ) ... and we simply keep sitting on through easy and hard ... benching the Universe which weighs everything and nothing at all. Attaining to the marrow "Nothing In Need of Attaining" is the Great Attainment.

          Something like that.

          Gassho, Jundo
          Last edited by Jundo; 01-24-2013, 02:21 PM.
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Taigu
            Blue Mountain White Clouds Hermitage Priest
            • Aug 2008
            • 2710

            #6
            all this
            is but a dream
            live the dream, live it and everything that goes with it
            our way
            is about...
            begging I get jokes and laughs
            working I get so little , enjoy giving so much
            sometimes I am given and it is too much
            whatever
            whatever
            This is my home
            sad or happy
            my home
            homeless home
            one foot after another
            one foot after
            one foor
            one

            ...T

            Comment

            • Eric
              Member
              • Jan 2013
              • 19

              #7
              Hi Catfish,

              Originally posted by catfish
              Not that odd of a combination. I just had a question on the ethics of bulking:
              I'm on a completely grain-free diet at the moment, and have been for a little less than three months, so its all goat milk, nuts, vegetables and fruits for me. This reduces the overall volume of food required, but it is expensive. I decided to do this after watching William Davis's excellent presentation on the history and clinical effects of modern wheat strains.

              The wheat of today is not the wheat of our mothers or grandmothers. Modern wheat is the product of genetic manipulations that have transformed its properties...


              Eating more without lifting more just makes people fatter, not stronger.


              True in the long run perhaps, but for me sitting after right after deadlifts is a wholly unpleasant experience.
              After lots of experimentation I've found the best exercise so far to improve sitting posture aside from stretching is 'weighted hip extensions'.

              This means I lie on my back with knees bent, place a 50 pound barbell over the hip joints and lift it with the back muscles to form a bridge position...repeat.


              Unlike bodybuilding, there is no goal in sitting. There are no "extra points" for sitting longer and no points deducted for squeezing in a shorter sit when you have to.
              When approaching Buddhism I think its useful to always look for the consensus among the diversity of traditions evolving out of the original teaching of the founder.

              And the consensus is clearly that this zazen gig is something one has to spend a lot of time with.

              If it matters not whether I sit 30 minutes or 15 minutes...why would it matter if I sit only 5 minutes, or 60 seconds? -Eric.

              Comment

              • Nengyo
                Member
                • May 2012
                • 668

                #8
                I'm on a completely grain-free diet at the moment, and have been for a little less than three months, so its all goat milk, nuts, vegetables and fruits for me.
                My wife eats gluten free and I usually join her, but it is hard to get a better cheaper insulin response than some post workout pasta or bread.

                After lots of experimentation I've found the best exercise so far to improve sitting posture aside from stretching is 'weighted hip extensions'.
                At my gym we call them the glute bridge. I used to do them often, but now I do high rep kettlebell swings after deadlifts for the posterior chain.

                And the consensus is clearly that this zazen gig is something one has to spend a lot of time with.
                If it matters not whether I sit 30 minutes or 15 minutes...why would it matter if I sit only 5 minutes, or 60 seconds? -Eric.
                Once again, I'm sure Jundo and Taigu will have much more substantial answers than I do, but if I understand this game correctly all of life is zazen. I have sat for 5 minutes, 60 seconds, and two hours. I have sat while changing diapers and while waiting for traffic to move.

                I am reminded of this koan:

                One day when Nangaku came to Baso’s hut, Baso stood up to receive him. Nangaku asked him, “What have you been doing recently?”

                Baso replied, “Recently I have been doing the practice of seated meditation exclusively.”

                Nangaku asked, “And what is the aim of your seated meditation?”

                Baso replied, “The aim of my seated meditation is to achieve Buddhahood.”

                Thereupon, Nangaku took a roof tile and began rubbing it on a rock near Baso’s hut.

                Baso, upon seeing this, asked him, “Reverend monk, what are you doing?”

                Nangaku replied, “I am polishing a roof tile.”

                Baso then asked, “What are you going to make by polishing a roof tile?”

                Nangaku replied, “I am polishing it to make a mirror.”

                Baso said, “How can you possibly make a mirror by rubbing a tile?”

                Nangaku replied, “How can you possibly make yourself into a Buddha by doing seated meditation?”


                However, I am just a beginner, so please do not take this as a lesson. It is just the ramblings of a somewhat crazy powerlifter.

                In gassho,
                Nengyo
                If I'm already enlightened why the hell is this so hard?

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40693

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Eric

                  When approaching Buddhism I think its useful to always look for the consensus among the diversity of traditions evolving out of the original teaching of the founder.

                  And the consensus is clearly that this zazen gig is something one has to spend a lot of time with.

                  If it matters not whether I sit 30 minutes or 15 minutes...why would it matter if I sit only 5 minutes, or 60 seconds? -Eric.
                  (Can't comment on lifting) but what you say on sitting time is right ... Zazen is Timeless, a moment of sitting holding all moments. So how could it be a matter of long or short, start or finish, 1 minute or 1 day?

                  On the other hand, we ask everyone to sit for a certain time each day ... because it takes some time to realize "timeless"! It requires a certain "sitting time" for "sitting a time as all time and timeless".



                  As to finding the consensus of a diversity of traditions, that is often good ... and each way of Buddhism may be a powerful path ... yet sometimes things do not mix and match. All the many flavors of Buddhism, and even among Zen schools, can be very different ... even though perfectly identical at heart. All is precisely one ... although frequently not the same at all. A Koan.

                  Bowling is a wonderful sport, and so is tennis ... and both use a ball. Yet, I would hesitate to play tennis with a bowling ball.


                  Originally posted by Jundo
                  This may also be a good time to repost links to "Readings on How to Read Zen/Buddhist" books, discussing how Buddhist books ... and Zen books in particular ... come in many lovely flavors (same but often very different different, different but just the same). Some of these readings sometime paint with too broad a brush, and are not completely accurate, but still useful to Zen readers who may pick up a book on "Zen" or "Buddhism" and not realize that the authors are often coming from quite different perspectives and approaches on "Zen" etc. (many roads up the non-mountain mountain).

                  SPECIAL READING - EIGHT TYPES OF ENLIGHTENMENT
                  Hi Ho, Continuing this special series of "readings that will help in understanding Zen readings" ... This is something that I introduced here once before, but is well worth re-reading and understanding by all of us. The topic is a very clear list of "Eight Types of Enlightenment" as typically found in


                  SPECIAL READING - ONCE BORN TWICE BORN ZEN

                  and



                  Perhaps the best book on all the many lineages and flavors of Zen in the West (although the book is already a few years dated and too limited to the USA) is James Ford's Zen Master Who? (Look for Jundo Cohen on page 140, pre-Treeleaf days! plug plug ) ...



                  SweepingZen webpage has become the best source of biographies and interviews with Zen teachers in the West in all their many flavors ...



                  Gassho, J
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Jishin
                    Member
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 4821

                    #10
                    Many moons ago I lifted weights. When lifting I had to be fully present, fully focused on the weights, the muscles, the movements and so forth so as not to get hurt and to maximize gains from lifting. In between sets of exercises I would sit on a bench, breathing, preparing for the next set. When I lifted, I lifted and when I rested I rested. Time evaporated between walking in and out of the gym. I think athletes call this the zone. About as zen you can get. Whatever that means.

                    Gassho, John

                    Comment

                    • Jakudo
                      Member
                      • May 2009
                      • 251

                      #11
                      I remember someone telling me that humans ability to focus or concentrate has a 20 minute cycle and that is the reason that 30 minute Zazen is the "standard" length of time. Has anyone else heard this, or did I dream it while practising sleepy zazen...?
                      Gassho, Jakudo.
                      Gassho, Shawn Jakudo Hinton
                      It all begins when we say, “I”. Everything that follows is illusion.
                      "Even to speak the word Buddha is dragging in the mud soaking wet; Even to say the word Zen is a total embarrassment."
                      寂道

                      Comment

                      • RichardH
                        Member
                        • Nov 2011
                        • 2800

                        #12
                        Not sure how the teachers would view this,... but when first learning meditation , it involved focus and concentration on an object. That was because there was a goal of absorption and stillness as a basis for further practice. It involved a subject focusing on an object. With Zazen it is different. There is no concentration or focus because there is no object to concentrate or focus on. It is just sitting in/as a basic effortless space, no subject or object.


                        Gassho Daizan.. sleepyish and about to go sit.
                        Last edited by RichardH; 01-25-2013, 12:17 PM.

                        Comment

                        • Mp

                          #13
                          Same here Daizan ... When I first started meditating the teacher talked about the two types of meditating. One being Calm Abiding (meditation with an attribute/object) and the other being Insight (without attribute/object).

                          I found it hard to meditate with an attribute/object as it made my mind just as busy and I never really felt that my mind had let go ... Busy in life, now busy in my meditation.

                          When I found Shikantaza, I truly found my practice ... Just being there, just sitting, not searching or clinging.

                          Gassho
                          Shingen

                          Comment

                          • Jundo
                            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                            • Apr 2006
                            • 40693

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Daizan
                            Not sure how the teachers would view this,... but when first learning meditation , it involved focus and concentration on an object. That was because there was a goal of absorption and stillness as a basis for further practice. It involved a subject focusing on an object. With Zazen it is different. There is no concentration or focus because there is no object to concentrate or focus on. It is just sitting in/as a basic effortless space, no subject or object.


                            Gassho Daizan.. sleepyish and about to go sit.
                            Hi,

                            You probably should say Shikantaza Zazen, as Koan Introspection Zazen of certain flavors would be focused on an object, the Koan or phrase of a Koan.

                            And in fact, some flavors of what is called "Shikantaza" as taught by some folks might emphasize attaining absorption and profound stillness, perhaps by focus on the breath or the like. (I would say, however, that such is not really "Shikantaza" due to the emphasis on attaining some such state, but not everyone would agree). Zazen, and even "Shikantaza", comes in several flavors.

                            However, in ALL flavors ... no less the flavor here (influenced by Uchiyama and Sawaki Roshis and the like) ... the central point is to soften and/or drop the subject/object barrier, the friction and divisions of "me " vs. "everything not me". That is true for Koan Zazen, every flavor of Shikantaza, and many other Buddhist meditation methods of other schools. Other schools may focus on an object ... a Koan, an image of Buddha or the like ... but all as means seeking to soften or drop the separation and divide.

                            I usually say this ...

                            There are many small variations in Shikantaza, teacher to teacher. One has to place and focus (and simultaneously not place/focus) the mind somewhere!

                            So, for example, Uchiyama Roshi was a "bring your attention back to the posture" guy. Nishijima Roshi is a "focus on keeping the spine straight" fellow, and there are others who emphasize focusing on the breath or the Hara (also called the "Tanden", the traditional "center of gravity" of the body, and a center of Qi energy in traditional Chinese medicine) ...



                            ...

                            All are forms of Shikantaza ... so long as the objectless nature of sitting is maintained even if focused on an object.

                            In fact, all forms of Shikantaza have an "object of meditation", a place to focus or place the mind to build concentration and quiet the thoughts (hopefully to soften the border and pass through "object" and "subject"), while dropping all effort to attain and releasing all judgments. At Treeleaf, ... as our central "objectless" object of meditation, I recommend open, spacious sitting centered on everything and nothing at all ... sitting with open, spacious awareness ... sitting with the whole world but without being lost in trains of thought (which I also sometimes describe as having the mind focused on "no place and everyplace at once"). That open stillness is our "object of concentration". [Jundo Note: In my view, our practice is not so much about keeping "one's mind on the here and now", but rather, about fully allowing the "here and now" so that the barriers of separation with the "here and now" drop away.] Another reason for that is that I believe it makes it a bit easier to take this practice off the Zafu and out into the world.
                            Gassho, J
                            Last edited by Jundo; 01-25-2013, 03:12 PM.
                            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                            Comment

                            • RichardH
                              Member
                              • Nov 2011
                              • 2800

                              #15
                              Thank you for clarifying that, Jundo. I should not assume that Zazen is Shikantaza, and that all Shikantaza is the the same.


                              Originally posted by Shingen
                              Same here Daizan ... When I first started meditating the teacher talked about the two types of meditating. One being Calm Abiding (meditation with an attribute/object) and the other being Insight (without attribute/object).

                              I found it hard to meditate with an attribute/object as it made my mind just as busy and I never really felt that my mind had let go ... Busy in life, now busy in my meditation.

                              When I found Shikantaza, I truly found my practice ... Just being there, just sitting, not searching or clinging.

                              Gassho,


                              Shingen
                              I feel the same, Shingen. It is home. I was taught "choiceless awareness" by a Forest Sangha Teacher years ago. It was similar to Shikantaza but not quite. It did ring a bell. I had spent many hours focusing at the tip of my nose and struggling. There was calm abiding and some subtle absorption, but it was a withdrawl, not an opening to things as they are. He pointed me this direction , pushed. An awake inclusive kind of attention came also through painting.

                              Gassho Daizan
                              Last edited by RichardH; 01-25-2013, 11:17 PM.

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