Way of the Snowball?

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  • Eric
    Member
    • Jan 2013
    • 19

    #16
    Originally posted by Jundo
    As to finding the consensus of a diversity of traditions, that is often good ... and each way of Buddhism may be a powerful path ... yet sometimes things do not mix and match.
    By 'consensus' I mean that all sects of Buddhism should at least have a few essential points in common...otherwise there's no reason to call them all Buddhism.

    To describe the overall mood of each major sect I would have to use three words...morbid, magnificent and mundane.

    Theravada is morbid, gloomy and nihilistic. Its a brooding over dry bones, negating everything in sight, lets all get the hell out of here and never come back...kind of culture. They are often accused of being selfish about all this morbidity, but I dont see that. The older monks assist the younger generation as they do everywhere else.

    Interestingly, the Rinzai master Hakuin wrote that the earliest generations of Theravada masters were far more advanced in their path than most of Hakuin's Zen contemporaries. A very generous open minded statement.

    Indian Mahayana is magnificent, spectacular and dramatic. There's lots of fireworks going on, ecstatic dancing deities, fiery demons flourishing their fangs, jewel trees and flowers falling from the sky.
    Every time I see pictures of India it occurs to me that the beauty of nature there is almost completely ignored...because their art and architecture is so exclusively anthropomorphic.

    The Zen sect has inherited some of Mahayana's magnificence...but the primary mood is mundane and subtle...although wonderfully mundane. Notice how Zen art renders very ordinary objects, plants and animals as if they were sacred...as if glowing with some mysterious intimate meaning?

    Subtlety is important also in human relations. When two professors of philosophy meet to discuss Buddhism the precision of words is critically important. But when two Zen masters meet they look for subtle signs of understanding...aside from the words exchanged.

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    • Myozan Kodo
      Friend of Treeleaf
      • May 2010
      • 1901

      #17
      Hi all,
      I keep learning from listening in on these great discussions. Thank you.
      Gassho
      Myozan

      Comment

      • Jakudo
        Member
        • May 2009
        • 251

        #18
        Originally posted by Myozan Kodo
        Hi all,
        I keep learning from listening in on these great discussions. Thank you.
        Gassho
        Myozan
        What a wonderful tradition we are part of being able to always be learning...unlearning. I was taught Shikantaza initially then was taught Vipassana meditation. I tried Vipassana....really tried, but always felt Shikantaza was my true form of meditation.
        Gassho, Jakudo.
        Gassho, Shawn Jakudo Hinton
        It all begins when we say, “I”. Everything that follows is illusion.
        "Even to speak the word Buddha is dragging in the mud soaking wet; Even to say the word Zen is a total embarrassment."
        寂道

        Comment

        • Jundo
          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
          • Apr 2006
          • 40693

          #19
          Originally posted by Eric

          Theravada is morbid, gloomy and nihilistic. Its a brooding over dry bones, negating everything in sight, lets all get the hell out of here and never come back...kind of culture. They are often accused of being selfish about all this morbidity, but I dont see that. The older monks assist the younger generation as they do everywhere else.

          Interestingly, the Rinzai master Hakuin wrote that the earliest generations of Theravada masters were far more advanced in their path than most of Hakuin's Zen contemporaries. A very generous open minded statement.

          Indian Mahayana is magnificent, spectacular and dramatic. There's lots of fireworks going on, ecstatic dancing deities, fiery demons flourishing their fangs, jewel trees and flowers falling from the sky.
          Every time I see pictures of India it occurs to me that the beauty of nature there is almost completely ignored...because their art and architecture is so exclusively anthropomorphic.

          The Zen sect has inherited some of Mahayana's magnificence...but the primary mood is mundane and subtle...although wonderfully mundane. Notice how Zen art renders very ordinary objects, plants and animals as if they were sacred...as if glowing with some mysterious intimate meaning?
          Hi Eric,

          I feel you paint with too broad a brush, engage in some tremendously imprecise stereotypes, some rather pejorative.

          The diverse picture of Buddhism is far from so simple.

          Gassho, Jundo
          Last edited by Jundo; 01-26-2013, 04:20 PM.
          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

          Comment

          • Eric
            Member
            • Jan 2013
            • 19

            #20
            Originally posted by Jundo
            On the other hand, we ask everyone to sit for a certain time each day...because it takes some time to realize "timeless"!
            When you stand up out of your sitting position...does this realization disappear?

            Comment

            • Nengyo
              Member
              • May 2012
              • 668

              #21
              When you stand up out of your sitting position...does this realization disappear?
              It rapidly sinks towards my socks, where it all collects for the day making them very holy socks... hahaha

              For me it disappears immediately, and it fades away slowly, and at the same time it can't possibly disappear at all. If that doesn't make sense, rejoice, little about the universe makes sense to anyone. I just keep sitting and maybe it will all come together (although, if I wanted to be really serious about it, I would cut off my eyelids and sit all day and night like bodidharma. Damn, why do I waste that time deadlifting?)

              So, what about you? Where does your zazen go when you stand up?
              If I'm already enlightened why the hell is this so hard?

              Comment

              • Eric
                Member
                • Jan 2013
                • 19

                #22
                Originally posted by catfish
                I am reminded of this koan:

                One day when Nangaku came to Baso’s hut, Baso stood up to receive him. Nangaku asked him, “What have you been doing recently?”

                Baso replied, “Recently I have been doing the practice of seated meditation exclusively.”

                Nangaku asked, “And what is the aim of your seated meditation?”

                Baso replied, “The aim of my seated meditation is to achieve Buddhahood.”

                Thereupon, Nangaku took a roof tile and began rubbing it on a rock near Baso’s hut.

                Baso, upon seeing this, asked him, “Reverend monk, what are you doing?”

                Nangaku replied, “I am polishing a roof tile.”

                Baso then asked, “What are you going to make by polishing a roof tile?”

                Nangaku replied, “I am polishing it to make a mirror.”

                Baso said, “How can you possibly make a mirror by rubbing a tile?”

                Nangaku replied, “How can you possibly make yourself into a Buddha by doing seated meditation?”
                Yeah, how bout that?

                If Nangaku had been a royal adviser in the palace of Sadhattha Gotama he might have been able to convince the young prince to stay home...instead of wasting his life sitting under a fig tree!

                He could have spent the rest of his life eating mangos, and hob-nobbing with the hob-nobs...consorting with the consorts.

                Well...any time we have 2000+ years of writings on ANY subject we are bound to find some statements that dont seem to fit the jig-saw puzzle. And we have to ask...should we follow the exceptions or the consensus?

                Some of those exceptions might even be mis-translations. The other day I was reading about the origin of the word 'katsu' which in Chinese apparently just means 'to shout'...as opposed to being a word that is shouted.

                Comment

                • Eric
                  Member
                  • Jan 2013
                  • 19

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Jundo
                  As to finding the consensus of a diversity of traditions, that is often good...
                  If all the world's Buddhist teachers gathered to come up with three points of doctrine they all have in common, and not shared by non-Buddhist traditions...

                  Just three...what would they be?
                  Last edited by Eric; 01-27-2013, 03:45 AM.

                  Comment

                  • Heisoku
                    Member
                    • Jun 2010
                    • 1338

                    #24
                    Buddha, Dharma, Sangha!!!!
                    Heisoku 平 息
                    Every day is a journey, and the journey itself is home. (Basho)

                    Comment

                    • Nengyo
                      Member
                      • May 2012
                      • 668

                      #25
                      If Nangaku had been a royal adviser in the palace of Sadhattha Gotama he might have been able to convince the young prince to stay home...instead of wasting his life sitting under a fig tree!
                      Did his enlightenment fall from the tree? Is that where zazen goes when we stand up? Maybe it's all about the fig trees... or perhaps the hob-nobbing and mangos are the answer. Or even who has the most words in a forum post. I have no clue.

                      I'm sure we could spend a thousand years discussing ancient pali writings and the optimum length that one should sit between lifting sessions, but tell me what words could I say to make you see my path? What could I say to show you my zazen, my timelessness? I've sat for two years now and I could barely tell you a word. I want to point at the moon and you would see only my finger. They may be the same, but I don't think either of us feel as if it is so yet. Good luck in your endeavors.

                      With much metta,
                      Charles
                      If I'm already enlightened why the hell is this so hard?

                      Comment

                      • Eric
                        Member
                        • Jan 2013
                        • 19

                        #26
                        Originally posted by John C.
                        Many moons ago I lifted weights. When lifting I had to be fully present, fully focused on the weights, the muscles, the movements and so forth so as not to get hurt and to maximize gains from lifting.
                        Thats right John...esp with a barbell on your back, one must remain mindful.

                        And this is true in many other areas as well...dentistry comes to mind.

                        I dont know why some people are able to concentrate their attention on one thing for long periods while others are not.

                        Apparently, an early sign of schizophrenia is the loss of the ability to track an object moving slowly across one's field of vision...this can be tested clinically with a special computer program.
                        Last edited by Eric; 01-27-2013, 03:44 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Jundo
                          Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                          • Apr 2006
                          • 40693

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Eric
                          Nangaku replied, “How can you possibly make yourself into a Buddha by doing seated meditation?”

                          If Nangaku had been a royal adviser in the palace of Sadhattha Gotama he might have been able to convince the young prince to stay home...instead of wasting his life sitting under a fig tree!

                          He could have spent the rest of his life eating mangos, and hob-nobbing with the hob-nobs...consorting with the consorts.
                          Dogen, our inspiration around the Soto neck of the Zen woods, did not take this Koan to mean that one need not sit because it was useless in making a Buddha. Rather, there is no Buddha who can or need be made, thus we sit to realize (grock) and realize (bring to life) such non-making. The very practice of polishing this tarnished life is Buddha realized in each swipe. Taigen Leighton discusses Dogen's presentation of this Koan ...

                          In one of his two verse comments (in Eihei Koryoku), Dogen inverts Nanyue's action by saying, "How can people plan to take a mirror and make it a tile?"[15], implying that such effort denigrates the Buddha already present. In "Zazenshin," commenting after Nanyue says, "How can you make a Buddha through zazen?" Dogen declares, "There is a principle that seated meditation does not await making a Buddha; there is nothing obscure about the essential message that making a Buddha is not connected with seated meditation."[16] For Dogen zazen is adamantly not merely a means to achieve buddhahood. But after commenting in detail on this story, Dogen says, "It is the seated Buddha that Buddha after Buddha and Patriarch after Patriarch have taken as their essential activity. Those who are Buddhas and Patriarchs have employed this essential activity, . . . for it is the essential function."[17] Although it is not an instrumental activity for gaining awakening, zazen is still the fundamental activity of buddhas for Dogen.

                          "Zazenshin" concludes with Dogen commenting on and writing his own version of a poem about the function of zazen by Chinese master Hongzhi Zhengjue (1091-1157: Wanshi Shogaku in Japanese), the most important Soto (Caodong in Chinese) teacher in the century before Dogen, and who was a primary source and inspiration for Dogen. For the purpose of this article, the main point in Dogen's discussion is that both verses begin with the proposition that zazen is "the essential function of all the Buddhas." Dogen comments that, "the essential function that is realized [by buddhas] is seated meditation."[18] Again, he sees zazen as the expression and function of buddhas, rather than buddhahood being a function, or consequence, of zazen.




                          Can one sit polishing tiles into tiles, mirrors into mirrors, Buddhas into tiles and mirrors, little broken you into Buddhas into tiles? Can one sit Buddhaing polish into polish? Dogen wrote in Kokyo (The Ancient Mirror) ...

                          We should truly comprehend that when the polished tile became a mirror, Baso became Buddha. And when Baso became Buddha, Baso immediately became the real Baso. And when Baso became the real Baso, his sitting in meditation immediately became real seated meditation. This is why the saying ‘polishing a tile to make a mirror’ has been preserved in the Bones and Marrow of former Buddhas.

                          Thus it is that the Ancient Mirror was made from a roof tile. Even though the mirror was being polished, it was already without blemish in its unpolished state. The tile was not something that was dirty; it was polished simply because it was a tile. ... If a tile could not become a Mirror, people could not become Buddha. If we belittle tiles as being lumps of clay, we will also belittle people as being lumps of clay. If people have a Heart, then tiles too will have a Heart. Who can recognize that there is a Mirror in which, when a tile comes, the Tile appears? And who can recognize that there is a Mirror in which, when a mirror comes, the Mirror appears?


                          Gassho, J
                          Last edited by Jundo; 01-27-2013, 03:09 AM.
                          ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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                          • Eric
                            Member
                            • Jan 2013
                            • 19

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Heisoku
                            Buddha, Dharma, Sangha!!!!
                            I meant three points of Dharma or doctrine...sorry I should have been more specific.

                            The Buddha was just a man with some profound awakening who created a dharma based on that awakening. It could have been anybody with the same profound awakening and the dharma would still have the same value.

                            Even if the manuscript was found under some bushes next to the Ganges it would still have the same value regardless of how it got there.

                            Come to think of it, some Buddhist schools trace their origins not to Gotama but to Vairocana the primordial Buddha. Because mortality seems too mundane I guess...just like a story was fabricated about Yeshua being born of a virgin, to get around the banality of sex. Makes for better marketing.

                            Sanghas are common to many non-buddhists traditions, although they are not called that specific word.
                            Last edited by Eric; 01-27-2013, 03:43 AM.

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                            • Nengyo
                              Member
                              • May 2012
                              • 668

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Eric
                              If all the world's Buddhist teachers gathered to come up with three points of doctrine they all have in common, and not shared by non-Buddhist traditions...

                              Just three...what would they be?
                              What if we we just had one point of doctrine to agree on or exactly five? Is three the magic number of inter-denominational dharma concordance?
                              If I'm already enlightened why the hell is this so hard?

                              Comment

                              • Jundo
                                Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                                • Apr 2006
                                • 40693

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Eric
                                I meant three points of Dharma or doctrine...sorry I should have been more specific.
                                Almost all Buddhists of any flavor teach the Three Marks of Existence ... the state of Dukkha (Suffering), Annica (Impermanence) and Annata (Non-Self)



                                Our little place is no exception ...

                                Were going to start a new series of 'Sit-a-Long with Jundo’s' on some fundamental Buddhist teachings — those things every Buddhist needs to know (and not know) — and maybe the most fundamental, insightful and elegant is the Buddha’s teaching of the Four Noble Truths, and Dukkha: So, what are the 'Four Noble Truths' (the

                                As time passes, we now move on from our look at the Eightfold Path, for the cherry blossoms are abloom here in Japan today. Spring has come. So, I would like to turn our attention to another fundamental of the Buddha’s teachings: Impermanence… No composite thing will last, and all are ever changing. Traditionally in

                                Here’s some news for you that you may find startling, so you’d best brace yourself: You see, your sense of your “you” is just your illusion. There is no “you” there, never was or will be. Or, at least, there is no “you” that’s the separate, ongoing “you” you


                                Of course, within that framework, much point for difference in interpretation among the many flavors and Teachers of Buddhism.

                                Eric, please post a photo in your profile, and an introduction of yourself to the other selfs (provisional or not) in our Greetings thread ...



                                Gassho, J
                                Last edited by Jundo; 01-27-2013, 09:38 AM.
                                ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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