Way of the Snowball?

[RichardH]

I was very grateful for a verbal shock, received from a teacher, at a time when I was full of Buddhist understanding, and wouldn't shut up. Hopefully I'll still receive one from a friend if needed.

Gassho, Daizan

I thought I gave you one a while back... hahahaaaaaaaa!



Gassho

That wasn't a shock.. it was more an opportunity to look at being annoyed. It is still appreciated though


Gassho, Daizan

[galen]

Hi Galen,

Thank you again for your kind words on another thread, was thinking about you yesterday as I was doing my weekly thing in the gym.

I still remember how full I was with questions, beliefs and all kind of ideas 35 years ago as I started sitting. Now, I only teach relunctantly and if I could I would certainly shut up. You see, a teacher cannot make herself or himself, students will, and they keep calling. Now, young people in this business, and they can be in their sixties, have often the tendency to over think. Our job is to help them as best as we can to drop this. I have been seen as harsh countless times by people observing mondos or Zen exchanges, for the guy in front of me, it was fine.

And yes, it is possible to awaken from this. And yes the poor guy had no idea what he was talking about (as it is too often the case on Zen forums).

Last point, if you read this pointer again you will see that I take my own stupidity of hungry ghost as a target of my gentle wrath. Eric is a good reminder for us all of a very common tendency.

Take care


Gassho


Taigu

Thank you Taigu! Good to see/hear from you as you seemingly appear from a darker period into the lighter.

It seems people like this Eric, and sometimes myself, feel the need to push on it, the it that seems rather fraudulent at times, and at times is, and needs the shake up. I cannot speak for him, but it is my way of learning through the exposure, or maybe bringing things more into light. Sometimes it serves well for all. The hard part is not letting this shakeup get overcome with emotion as that does not seem to be the Zen/Buddhist Way, and that may be the real test as you seem to insinuate here. There is nothing wrong with Eric's take it seems, its his, and for everyone getting all `up in arms' and worked up, he seemed to get his way and possibly did bring out the shallower side with everyone getting a little carried away. All of a sudden there were quite a few Zen experts. It seems he exposed dualism, his pushed buttons and no matter how or what people judged him buy, and of course I am not expert here, he did know a lot and on some levels he has spent some time in his preparation this type of dance. My guess is he probably is more of the atheist type, for whatever that is worth and quite intelligent. He backed down from no one and on his own, it seems he left when he felt he had exposed a group who think they are such Zenners. I feel people like him and Chet are a good thing, they teach in their own way and are quite harmless. But when they are attacked, and there is not winners or losers, they make their mark, good or what could be called bad. I try to read between the lines, there are a lot of levels going on and yes as you say, we can think to much. But to your point here, this same thinking to much or over dramatizing also possibly came from the teachers here too. He was our projection, we needed to look at our own shit, because on a lot of levels he is us, we are him caught in this dualistic ego game called life. Peace, brother Taigu, good to hear from you.



Gassho

[galen]

That wasn't a shock.. it was more an opportunity to look at being annoyed. It is still appreciated though


Gassho, Daizan

Thanks man! It seemed rather shocking to me, as I also appreciate you.



Gassho

[Jundo]

Thank you Taigu! Good to see/hear from you as you seemingly appear from a darker period into the lighter.

It seems people like this Eric, and sometimes myself, feel the need to push on it, the it that seems rather fraudulent at times, and at times is, and needs the shake up. I cannot speak for him, but it is my way of learning through the exposure, or maybe bringing things more into light. Sometimes it serves well for all. The hard part is not letting this shakeup get overcome with emotion as that does not seem to be the Zen/Buddhist Way, and that may be the real test as you seem to insinuate here. There is nothing wrong with Eric's take it seems, its his, and for everyone getting all `up in arms' and worked up, he seemed to get his way and possibly did bring out the shallower side with everyone getting a little carried away. All of a sudden there were quite a few Zen experts. It seems he exposed dualism, his pushed buttons and no matter how or what people judged him buy, and of course I am not expert here, he did know a lot and on some levels he has spent some time in his preparation this type of dance. My guess is he probably is more of the atheist type, for whatever that is worth and quite intelligent. He backed down from no one and on his own, it seems he left when he felt he had exposed a group who think they are such Zenners. I feel people like him and Chet are a good thing, they teach in their own way and are quite harmless. But when they are attacked, and there is not winners or losers, they make their mark, good or what could be called bad. I try to read between the lines, there are a lot of levels going on and yes as you say, we can think to much. But to your point here, this same thinking to much or over dramatizing also possibly came from the teachers here too. He was our projection, we needed to look at our own shit, because on a lot of levels he is us, we are him caught in this dualistic ego game called life. Peace, brother Taigu, good to hear from you.



Gassho

Hi Galen,

Why do you take such a tone in several of these messages?

Gassho, Jundo

[galen]

Hi Galen,

Why do you take such a tone in several of these messages?

Gassho, Jundo

What tone?

I am accepting and reasonable, just straight forward with my feelings. I just re-read my post and do not see anything that harsh or cruel, what do you see? Have I hurt anyone here? Have I threatened anyone here, unless it seems threatening and then that is not my problem? Please point out these several messages which have such a tone that is so unreasonable or uncomfortable. I thought Taigu I just had a nice exchange, with my full respect to him and he to me. Same with Daizen, I enjoyed both of their posts.


Gassho

[galen]

Jundo....... I just re-read the entire thread. It seems I may have been to strong with my post, but do feel it also held water. My comeback to Taigu about being a little harsh, was just that. Asking if he thought it was a 'little to harsh'. I felt you personally were teaching all the way and showed great patience with this person to the end. I did feel someone like Limo, in his short exposure here may have bee 'some what' aggressive at the end of his posts. This Eric guy was not causing any harm that I could see, whether confused or and idiot, that seems to be his right.



Gassho

[JohnsonCM]

Sometimes harsh, sometimes Bodhidharma ; sometimes kind, sometimes Dogen. All is practice. Just be aware that you don't see something not there.

[Eric]

A university professor went to visit a Japanese Zen teacher. While the teacher quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen, the philosophy of Zen, his opinions about why Zen was this or that, about the need to replace one thing with another, about how much an original principle might be re-cast or re-interpreted before its meaning has changed enough to break the consensus. The teacher poured the visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring.

The professor watched the overflowing cup until he could no longer restrain himself.

"It's overfull! No more will go in!" the professor blurted.

"You are like this cup," the teacher replied, "How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup."

As a postscript I feel compelled to say something about the above quoted blurb, as its too important to ignore.

This little dialog is kind of like a stock item...always there to pull off the shelf whenever needed to distort the Dharma's true place and role in the tradition.

The Dharma is simply the consensus of conceptual explanations of whatever is realized in meditation. And as such it functions somewhat like a very detailed label on a soft drink. One cannot fully understand the label unless one tastes the contents...on the other hand, tasting the contents will not always yield the same conceptual explanations.

This is why a record of consensus is necessary and important in its own right.

Its also apparent as a fun side note that no one can be forced to taste the contents. What if Bodhisattva Jizo used his famous iron staff to pry open the gates of hell...and no one wanted to leave??? LOL!

Therefore, Buddhist meditation, scholarship and patronage function like three wheels of a tricycle, rolling forward in a mutually dependant relationship.

If that image doesnt appeal to you, we could also use the analogy of an archery target made of concentric circles.

The bullseye is the center is occupied by those rare monks with enough aspiration to spend long measures of their lives in meditation. The next wider circle is occupied by those monks who keep, maintain and memorize the Dharma record...very difficult and important work that is again only suited to a few. The next wider circle is occupied by monks who administer and maintain the temple with all its practical requirements. And the last circle is occupied by those lay associates who support the temple financially...forming a kind of surrounding wall of protection.

This last role is also very important and has traditionally been filled by government. If one reads history carefully it becomes obvious that Asian religions have risen and fallen largely based on government patronage. Many thousands of temples have been destroyed simply because a new Emperor took the throne and favoured the competition, and many thousands have been built with public funds extorted from the citizenry through taxation.

Just the social role Buddhist temples have played in Asian history is spectacular in scope, esp when one considers how many orphaned children were saved from starvation, and how many widows were afforded a meaningful place in the world as temple nuns.

Even an army of goose stepping demons would stop and press their palms together in pious reverence! -Eric.

[Jishin]

Eric,

Thank you for your teachings.

Gassho,

John

[Nengyo]

<edit> deleted because my post was made just for the fun of debating. It is such a tough habit to break, even after my post on the subject

Gassho
Nengyo

[Jundo]

Hi Eric,

The Dharma is simply the consensus of conceptual explanations of whatever is realized in meditation. And as such it functions somewhat like a very detailed label on a soft drink. One cannot fully understand the label unless one tastes the contents...on the other hand, tasting the contents will not always yield the same conceptual explanations.

Yes, this is true. Zazen is the Taste of All Tastes, and leads practitioners to some commonly shared tastes ... forsaking greed, violence and such.

Yet, the Taste of All Tastes yields some folks who prefer Pepsi, some Fanta Orange, some Ginger Ale, each a good and thirst quenching taste in its way. Simply to look for a consensus by mixing all together yields quite a mess! Yet, the sweetness at the Heart is still there.

Here at Treeleaf, we drink Pepsi, leaving other to their Fanta and such ... all lovely drinks. Perhaps this place is just not to your taste.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jinyo]

Hi Eric - have been drinking Pepsi here for a while. We drink face to face - talk/debate (and do not always agree!) support each other through personal difficulties - and practice Zazen together. This is not a place of only words - like so many forums - it is a Sangha.

Why not post a picture, share a little about yourself, and open your mind to what really happens here.

Gassho

Willow

[JohnsonCM]

There is always someone who says something like this every few months or so. How can you know what comprises the dharma if everything is the dharma, and who among us can truly KNOW everything? When I first came here I tried to dissect and lable the dharma and enlightenment, and in the end I just found my"self" holding a bunch of labels with nothing to stick them on. Eric, I would ask that you simply sit with us and read the posts of the teachers, senior members, and Unsui. Try to just hear what they say, let their eyebrows become tangled wlth yours, if after that you prefer the taste of another drink to ours, then may your journey be a pleasent one. As for me, I like cool-aid.

[Rich]

"How to sit as a means of stopping suffering is the question."

[Jundo]

No coke ... pepsi ...

Gassho, J