Way of the Snowball?

[Nengyo]

Question is...how much can an original principle be re-cast or re-interpreted before its meaning has changed enough to break the consensus?

Imagine an alcoholic wakes up with a hangover on Saturday morning, stands up and says..."Ok, thats it...I'm done!".

He starts walking around his apartment and catches his reflection in a mirror..."No really...I'm serious this time...I'm never going to drink again!!!"

He sits down and waits for bedtime...concentrating on 'not drinking'.
And all day he thinks of nothing else but this absence of drinking, watching the clock ticking away.

This would be a rather morbid desperate approach methinks...and not very fruitful.

I think you are correct. Sitting around thinking "don't drink" would be a horrible anti-alcoholic technique. In fact trying to not do anything by sitting around thinking "don't do it" would probably be doomed to failure. My problem is that I don't see what this has to do with zazen, buddhism, or anything else except for people trying to quit stuff via pure thinking of "don't do it"

You dont change by 'not doing' something...but by doing something else as a replacement. It doesnt even have to be some other (less harmful) form of addiction. It could be something more wholesome...like lawn darts...or playing with a rubber tire on a chain! Nevermind...its a old Woody Allen joke.

What makes something wholesome? What makes something less addictive? What is the difference between "not doing" something and "replacing" something with another thing? I am thouroghly confused. Couldn't the alcoholic sit and think "don't do it" for some of the time, do other things other times, and sit and not do or think anything at other times? More troubling, is that I have no clue what the hell this analogy is supposed to represent. I know I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but if the alcoholic represents people on the zen path then I'm lost by what the comparison is about. Can you make it more clear?

The same is true with a tradition like Buddhism. The three marks of existence listed above are simply omissions or negations. Everything is impermanent, unsatisfactory and without an intrinsic self.

Of course this is dependant on the definition of 'thing'...but this is for physicists to figure out, not people sitting on zafus guessing based on subjective feeling.

The three marks are not ommissions or negations unless you have redefined those words. They are a list of ATTRIBUTES that the teachings of the Buddha have. You calling them negations does not make it so, and trying to prove that they are would take a philosophical discussion that would exceed the bandwith and storage of this forum. Furthermore, Physicist do not define words. That is a philosophers job. Physicist construct models of reality and test them to see if they comport to reality. A physicist will not define a thing he will describe a phenomena (usually mathematically) that may correspond to a "thing" but things and thingyness are in the realm of philosophy (this is a nit pick, but I do love my science)

If someone asks me what is Buddhism and I answer..."Well, its not this, and its not that, and hey, its not the other thing either!"

All I have done is create an empty zero...a vacuum with no basis for any structure of rightness or meaning.

What if someone ask you what ice cream is? Do you suffer an existential break down or just go to the freezer? Different people may define Buddhism (or Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) differently, but that does not mean you have created an empty zero (whatever that means) with that definition. Unless all things evade definition, which is a debate about the nature of reality and the difference between concepts and reality, you can define Buddhism in spite of any ambiguity.

Even the term 'sentient being' is contradicted by the principle of 'annata'. The charge of vicarious liability asserts itself...while the ethical theory of karma is thus thrown overboard. -Eric.

The concept of sentient being is in no way contradicted by the principle of annata. Annata means no soul if I'm not mistaken. Please explain how that negates anything other than an everlasting soul? Also I'm not sure why karma gets thrown overboard. Maybe it has, but you certainly haven't made a case for it other than a priori assertions.

Also, it is my understanding that Zen was formed precisely to avoid this kind of nonsense... just sit, or not. Either way words won't make it so.

[Eric]

Just to wrap up my inquiry into the Soto teaching I'd like to touch on two more points I think are fascinating.

There was a saying among the Rabbis of medieval Spain...

"Always the last form of pride to be surrendered by a teacher is the desire to be famous for his humility."

LOL! The quickest way to go down in the history of Buddhist teachers is to invent something new...change the Dharma or add something new to it.

In that sense, Buddhist history becomes like the snowball I mentioned in the opening post, rolling down a hill, picking up all kinds of distortions and cultural baggage along the way. That perfect sphere you once held in your hands might end up at the bottom as a very large ovoid...with some odd bits sticking out here and there!

Most of the time, whatever you hear from a contemporary teacher is just what is recited from his/her sect...which may be no more significant than a pimple on an elephant, relative to the consensus among all Buddhist teachings that have ever existed. That's what...thirty thousand volumes or so?

This is what I see in the current Soto incarnation, which revolves around a few lines of text in Dogen's writings...which are contradicted by dozens of other statements in his works that crush it like an eggshell.

I'm referring to the synonymising of practise and enlightenment.

You ask any of the thousands of great teachers who have lived over the past 2000+ years whether these principles are synonyms and they will say..."Of course not...duh?"


Another interesting observation is how sitting meditation is thought by almost all schools to lead directly to their own particular teaching by an intuition that requires no words.


How many times have we heard a teacher say...

"I know my garbled convoluted logic doesnt make any sense...but if you will just shut up and sit still for a few years every word will eventually be revealed as a perfect truth...as if it had just fallen down from heaven!"

Problem is, this isnt borne out by the testimony of history. Literally dozens of traditions engage sitting meditation, and yet they all come out in the wash with very different doctrinal conclusions, whether they are called Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, or Daoist.

So, next time you hear this rap...remember its not the teacher's fault. Its your fault for not bringing this nonsense to a screeching halt!

I wish everyone the best outcome in their endeavours...even if they dont call it that! Happy trails y'all! -Eric.

[Nengyo]

Just to wrap up my inquiry into the Soto teaching I'd like to touch on two more points I think are fascinating.

You didn't really inquire into anything. Nor did you teach anything. In fact you didn't even troll. I'm seriously confused about what you think you accomplished.

There was a saying among the Rabbis of medieval Spain...

"Always the last form of pride to be surrendered by a teacher is the desire to be famous for his humility."

Can you quote the source. I can't find any such quote on my school search engine.

LOL! The quickest way to go down in the history of Buddhist teachers is to invent something new...change the Dharma or add something new to it.

In that sense, Buddhist history becomes like the snowball I mentioned in the opening post, rolling down a hill, picking up all kinds of distortions and cultural baggage along the way. That perfect sphere you once held in your hands might end up at the bottom as a very large ovoid...with some odd bits sticking out here and there!

So are you striving for a permanent, unchanging Buddhism that one can really be attached to?

Most of the time, whatever you hear from a contemporary teacher is just what is recited from his/her sect...which may be no more significant than a pimple on an elephant, relative to the consensus among all Buddhist teachings that have ever existed. That's what...thirty thousand volumes or so?

This is what I see in the current Soto incarnation, which revolves around a few lines of text in Dogen's writings...which are contradicted by dozens of other statements in his works that crush it like an eggshell.

I'm referring to the synonymising of practise and enlightenment.

You ask any of the thousands of great teachers who have lived over the past 2000+ years whether these principles are synonyms and they will say..."Of course not...duh?"

How do you know what the thousands of great teachers would say in regards to any question, much less the one you propose?

Another interesting observation is how sitting meditation is thought by almost all schools to lead directly to their own particular teaching by an intuition that requires no words.


How many times have we heard a teacher say...

"I know my garbled convoluted logic doesnt make any sense...but if you will just shut up and sit still for a few years every word will eventually be revealed as a perfect truth...as if it had just fallen down from heaven!"

Problem is, this isnt borne out by the testimony of history. Literally dozens of traditions engage sitting meditation, and yet they all come out in the wash with very different doctrinal conclusions, whether they are called Hindu, Jain, Buddhist, or Daoist.

So, next time you hear this rap...remember its not the teacher's fault. Its your fault for not bringing this nonsense to a screeching halt!

I wish everyone the best outcome in their endeavours...even if they dont call it that! Happy trails y'all! -Eric.

I'm pretty sure that all intrinsic meditative practices admit that they don't capture the full truth with words, concepts, or traditions. What is your point?

I would like to thank you for something, but I have read all your post at least twice now and I have no clue what you are trying to do, say, imply, prove, or convince me of. As a scientist who loves to dabble in philosophy I really wanted to be wowed. I wasn't. I'm confused.

I wish you nothing but the best in your practice. I hope whatever path you are on leads you to the truth. If you wish to try to clarify your points feel free to PM me.

Metta,
Nengyo

[Daitetsu]

Just to wrap up my inquiry into the Soto teaching I'd like to touch on two more points I think are fascinating.

Alas, you should not confuse honest inquiry with bringing in own prejudices, seeking for clues to "confirm" them and discarding the rest that does not fit.
Interesting thing that most here concluded from your words that you don't practice zazen regularly or at all.

So long, and thanks for all the fish,

Timo

[Jundo]

In that sense, Buddhist history becomes like the snowball I mentioned in the opening post, rolling down a hill, picking up all kinds of distortions and cultural baggage along the way. That perfect sphere you once held in your hands might end up at the bottom as a very large ovoid...with some odd bits sticking out here and there!

Most of the time, whatever you hear from a contemporary teacher is just what is recited from his/her sect...which may be no more significant than a pimple on an elephant, relative to the consensus among all Buddhist teachings that have ever existed. That's what...thirty thousand volumes or so?

This is what I see in the current Soto incarnation, which revolves around a few lines of text in Dogen's writings...which are contradicted by dozens of other statements in his works that crush it like an eggshell.

Hi Eric,

Well, rolling on and changing is also how evolution, progress and adaptation to new circumstances happen. It has been that way in Buddhism for 2500 years, with some aspects of this Way thoroughly Formless and Timeless ... and some forms moving on from India to China to Japan or Korea and on, through very different centuries and cultures and ways of interpreting Buddhist Teachings. Sure, some changes may be for the worse and are to be avoided ... yet some may be improvements, or more effective or suitable interpretations, on old forms.

The reasons on has "thirty thousand volumes" is because rarely were folks in agreement except on the Heart of the Matter (and even then, little in agreement on how to express that Heart sometimes), so thus thousands of volumes all asserting something often very different approaches to the same thing-non-thing.

Not sure which "few lines of Dogen" are contradicted, or what you mean.

However, I will say this: If the way of a certain Practice or Teachers or place does not suit you, one might find another place or Practice or Teachers. I do not feel you gave Shikantaza much of a chance, however, before jumping to preset conclusions.

Gassho, Jundo

PS - Here is a talk from today that is very much related to evolution ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10562-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-Even-Buddhas-Get-the-Blues

[Jinyo]

Eric,

Humbly, in your presentation, everything spot on, but most things coming from the wrong place. Cut this. Cut~nurture this. How to?
As you walk through this gate with your mouth open, I see nothing but saliva and useless foaming. That would certainly fill a book. In life, hopeless.
How do you gassho? How do you walk to work? How do you eat and sleep and kiss?
You are trapped in the "why~world".

with a because~world not far away...

Zen start when whys are dropped.

hungry ghost like myself a lot of the time, wake up!

gassho


Taigu

Wise words in this plethora of words.

It's a year since I joined Tree Leaf - looking over my shoulder I see a trail of books, must have bought and read at least a book a week.

Nothing wrong with books, nothing wrong with words, nothing wrong with hermeneutics, ..... but, but, but ..... I'm beginning to feel it's what I do when I'm sleeping.

This hungry ghost wants to wake up!

Gassho


Willow

[YuimaSLC]

A young lad of 7 years was traveling a long distance across Utah's southeast desert in an automobile with his parents, brother and sister, and grandfather. The whole family snuggly stuffed together, with grandfather and dad in the front, mother and kids in the back.

The boy was excited for the part of the day they'd be crossing into Arizona. The boy was fascinated with maps, and those funny little symbols illustrators put on to show what industry and resources the region is most notable; and he knew the various boundaries each state in the America West.

When they finally approached the Utah-Arizona border, the family happily noted the "Welcome to Arizona" sign off to the right side. And as they passed the sign, the young fellow looked a bit distressed and with disappointment in his voice, asked, "Have we crossed into Arizona? We can't have crossed. Where is the yellow line?"

"What yellow line?", his mother responded.

"You know, the straight yellow line that stretches in both directions separating the two states! Where's the line showing the boundary?"

Lines of longitude and latitude are useful tools for navigation, but they are but concepts in our minds. One will not find such actual lines surrounding the earth's surface, no matter how much we look for them. Mathematical formulas and designs written on a blackboard attempt to describe and predict certain realities and events, but I've never known a drawing of a car to actually transport a family across the desert.

[JohnsonCM]

It matters because as you sit you learn but not like reading a book learn. You learn how to not learn, how to simply be. You learn the things you always knew, but kept letting your Self get in the way of. It takes time to learn this, and when you get it, you'll realize that you always had it, and that you'll never really get it anyway -but there it is, sitting on your cushion breathing in and out with your nose. You will only see it when its there and not until, and when you do see it, you'll never understand how you didn't see it before, or how you'llnever really be able to SEE anything.

[Jakudo]

It matters because as you sit you learn but not like reading a book learn. You learn how to not learn, how to simply be. You learn the things you always knew, but kept letting your Self get in the way of. It takes time to learn this, and when you get it, you'll realize that you always had it, and that you'll never really get it anyway -but there it is, sitting on your cushion breathing in and out with your nose. You will only see it when its there and not until, and when you do see it, you'll never understand how you didn't see it before, or how you'llnever really be able to SEE anything.

I agree Christopher, I have found that I have "unlearned" lots with my practise. Conceptions I formed long ago are slowly being worn down, broken up and scattered in the wind.
Gassho, Jakudo Hinton

[galen]

Hi Catfish,


I'm on a completely grain-free diet at the moment, and have been for a little less than three months, so its all goat milk, nuts, vegetables and fruits for me. This reduces the overall volume of food required, but it is expensive. I decided to do this after watching William Davis's excellent presentation on the history and clinical effects of modern wheat strains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbBURnqYVzw

Eating more without lifting more just makes people fatter, not stronger.



After lots of experimentation I've found the best exercise so far to improve sitting posture aside from stretching is 'weighted hip extensions'.

This means I lie on my back with knees bent, place a 50 pound barbell over the hip joints and lift it with the back muscles to form a bridge position...repeat.



When approaching Buddhism I think its useful to always look for the consensus among the diversity of traditions evolving out of the original teaching of the founder.

And the consensus is clearly that this zazen gig is something one has to spend a lot of time with.

If it matters not whether I sit 30 minutes or 15 minutes...why would it matter if I sit only 5 minutes, or 60 seconds? -Eric.

Personally, I would not go on the no-grain thing. It seems to help by not going to extremes.


Gassho

[galen]

Many moons ago I lifted weights. When lifting I had to be fully present, fully focused on the weights, the muscles, the movements and so forth so as not to get hurt and to maximize gains from lifting. In between sets of exercises I would sit on a bench, breathing, preparing for the next set. When I lifted, I lifted and when I rested I rested. Time evaporated between walking in and out of the gym. I think athletes call this the zone. About as zen you can get. Whatever that means.

Gassho, John

I have been a so-called body builder/weight lifter most of my life. It is very healthy for the heart not to mention it gets you into nutrition. Weight lifting and any focused attention is very Zen like. I do as you say and will for-Ever.



Gassho

[galen]

Eric,

Humbly, in your presentation, everything spot on, but most things coming from the wrong place. Cut this. Cut~nurture this. How to?
As you walk through this gate with your mouth open, I see nothing but saliva and useless foaming. That would certainly fill a book. In life, hopeless.
How do you gassho? How do you walk to work? How do you eat and sleep and kiss?
You are trapped in the "why~world".

with a because~world not far away...

Zen start when whys are dropped.

hungry ghost like myself a lot of the time, wake up!

gassho


Taigu

Is this a little harsh?? Can one awaken from this?



Gassho

[RichardH]

Is this a little harsh?? Can one awaken from this?



Gassho

I was very grateful for a verbal shock, received from a teacher, at a time when I was full of Buddhist understanding, and wouldn't shut up. Hopefully I'll still receive one from a friend if needed.

Gassho, Daizan

[galen]

I was very grateful for a verbal shock, received from a teacher, at a time when I was full of Buddhist understanding, and wouldn't shut up. Hopefully I'll still receive one from a friend if needed.

Gassho, Daizan

I thought I gave you one a while back... hahahaaaaaaaa!



Gassho

[Taigu]

Hi Galen,

Thank you again for your kind words on another thread, was thinking about you yesterday as I was doing my weekly thing in the gym.

I still remember how full I was with questions, beliefs and all kind of ideas 35 years ago as I started sitting. Now, I only teach relunctantly and if I could I would certainly shut up. You see, a teacher cannot make herself or himself, students will, and they keep calling. Now, young people in this business, and they can be in their sixties, have often the tendency to over think. Our job is to help them as best as we can to drop this. I have been seen as harsh countless times by people observing mondos or Zen exchanges, for the guy in front of me, it was fine.

And yes, it is possible to awaken from this. And yes the poor guy had no idea what he was talking about (as it is too often the case on Zen forums).

Last point, if you read this pointer again you will see that I take my own stupidity of hungry ghost as a target of my gentle wrath. Eric is a good reminder for us all of a very common tendency.

Take care


Gassho


Taigu