Way of the Snowball?

[Heisoku]

Thanks for all the posts Eric, I was going to reply similar to Jundo but I was going to refer to the Four Noble Truths.
These postings made me think back to what actually got me going down the Buddha Way. It was a line in Conze's book, Buddhist Scriptures in a section on the Paranibbana, 'Be a light unto yourself', which I took a bit too literally. This led me down many twisted thought roads. In the end you need reference points, and for me that is zazen and good teachers. Here we have those in spades thanks to the Sangha, and to both Jundo and Taigu.
Gassho.

[Nengyo]

Almost all Buddhists of any flavor teach the Three Marks of Existence ... the state of Dukkha (Suffering), Annica (Impermanence) and Annata (Non-Self)

Apparently three IS the magic number of inter-denominational dharma concordance! hahaha I was thinking; four noble truths, eightfold path, and emptiness being form, but I have little clue where most of the other branches sit on things.

[Eric]

So, what about you? Where does your zazen go when you stand up?

Well thats a different question isnt it...than the one I offered Jundo. I asked whether the realization of 'timeless' disappears when standing up.

Zazen refers to sitting in stillness.

[Eric]

Eric, please post a photo in your profile, and an introduction of yourself to the other selfs (provisional or not) in our Greetings thread

I didnt know we had a special intro thread. I'll post a little something this evening.

[Jundo]

Well thats a different question isnt it...than the one I offered Jundo. I asked whether the realization of 'timeless' disappears when standing up.

Zazen refers to sitting in stillness.

Well, the standard Zenny response is that 'timeless' does not disappear or appear, is not limited to sitting or standing up or any position in time and space. Also, 'timeless' appears, disappears, sits and stands, runs and flies and is every second of time.

We sit to realize that (which cannot be realized).

If you came to a Zen Sangha but without intention to sit, it is very much like coming to a Karate Dojo but staying off the mat.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jishin]

The answer of all answers is no answer, I think.

Gassho,

John

[Eric]

Well, the standard Zenny response is that 'timeless' does not disappear or appear, is not limited to sitting or standing up or any position in time and space.

Do you mean this realization of 'timeless' is dependant on sitting in stillness BEFORE it happens...but not AFTER it happens?

Also, is this realization like a volume knob with a spectrum of depth...or is it an on/off switch?

[Jundo]

Do you mean this realization of 'timeless' is dependant on sitting in stillness BEFORE it happens...but not AFTER it happens?

Also, is this realization like a volume knob with a spectrum of depth...or is it an on/off switch?

Oye! I guess this is the time of the old Zen Teacher cop-out-non-cop-out, "Just Sit, find out for 'your so-called self'".

Timeless is not dependent on anything, thus it is timeless. There is no before or now or after, and yet timeless is tick tocking before now and after. Timeless is 5:32 pm. In fact, 5:32pm embodies all time and timeless.

Timeless is not here or there ... thus it is here, there, on Mars and in New Jersey.

Timeless is not a matter of realization, and cannot be realized. One sits to realize such non-realization.

Timeless is not a matter of shallow or deep, yet is found at the bottom of the sea or a spoonful of water. Sometimes it is found boundlessly, sometimes to one degree or another.

Very Zenny, huh!?

Eric, are you sitting each day ... dropping all thought of time or timeless, deep or shallow, before now and after? Please sit each day in such way, for a time in your sitting place.

Gassho, Jundo

[Daitetsu]

Hi Eric,

Please don't get this wrong, but you sound like someone who knows Zen only from an "outside view", just from books/talks. I may be wrong, so please don't take this as an offense.
Of course, your questions are justified (I am also someone who is full of questions), but many of them (if not most) become clear when you sit every day - even if it's just 15 mins.
I'd recommend watching one Trealeaf Beginner's Video a day, always sitting afterwards (the most important point). When you are through with them I am convinced many of your questions will have been solved.
Give it a shot, it cannot hurt.

Gassho,

Timo

[Eric]

Almost all Buddhists of any flavor teach the Three Marks of Existence ... the state of Dukkha (Suffering), Annica (Impermanence) and Annata (Non-Self)

http://buddhism.about.com/od/basicbuddhistteachings/tp/threemarks.htm

Of course, within that framework, much point for difference in interpretation among the many flavors and Teachers of Buddhism.

Question is...how much can an original principle be re-cast or re-interpreted before its meaning has changed enough to break the consensus?

Imagine an alcoholic wakes up with a hangover on Saturday morning, stands up and says..."Ok, thats it...I'm done!".

He starts walking around his apartment and catches his reflection in a mirror..."No really...I'm serious this time...I'm never going to drink again!!!"

He sits down and waits for bedtime...concentrating on 'not drinking'.
And all day he thinks of nothing else but this absence of drinking, watching the clock ticking away.

This would be a rather morbid desperate approach methinks...and not very fruitful.

You dont change by 'not doing' something...but by doing something else as a replacement. It doesnt even have to be some other (less harmful) form of addiction. It could be something more wholesome...like lawn darts...or playing with a rubber tire on a chain! Nevermind...its a old Woody Allen joke.

The same is true with a tradition like Buddhism. The three marks of existence listed above are simply omissions or negations. Everything is impermanent, unsatisfactory and without an intrinsic self.

Of course this is dependant on the definition of 'thing'...but this is for physicists to figure out, not people sitting on zafus guessing based on subjective feeling.

If someone asks me what is Buddhism and I answer..."Well, its not this, and its not that, and hey, its not the other thing either!"

All I have done is create an empty zero...a vacuum with no basis for any structure of rightness or meaning.

Even the term 'sentient being' is contradicted by the principle of 'annata'. The charge of vicarious liability asserts itself...while the ethical theory of karma is thus thrown overboard. -Eric.

[Eric]

Of course, your questions are justified (I am also someone who is full of questions), but many of them (if not most) become clear when you sit every day.

Does this mean zazen didnt work in your own case...seeing as you are still full of questions?

I realize all verbal explanations are imperfect...but this is no justification for abandoning all attempts to make sense of the Dharma. To do so would be the ultimate disrespect to all those who sacrificed their lives to preserve it.

[Jishin]

Eric,

Thank you for your teachings.

Take great care.

Gassho,

John

[Jundo]

Question is...how much can an original principle be re-cast or re-interpreted before its meaning has changed enough to break the consensus?

Imagine an alcoholic wakes up with a hangover on Saturday morning, stands up and says..."Ok, thats it...I'm done!".

He starts walking around his apartment and catches his reflection in a mirror..."No really...I'm serious this time...I'm never going to drink again!!!"

He sits down and waits for bedtime...concentrating on 'not drinking'.
And all day he thinks of nothing else but this absence of drinking, watching the clock ticking away.

This would be a rather morbid desperate approach methinks...and not very fruitful.

You dont change by 'not doing' something...but by doing something else as a replacement. It doesnt even have to be some other (less harmful) form of addiction.

Have you sat with this talk for "All Beginners" yet? It might address some of this. Saying there is no "you" to change ... and nothing to change ... does not mean there is no you and much else in need of change.

Saying that there is “no place to go, no destination” does not mean that there are not good and bad paths to get there! Saying “there is nothing that need be done” does—not—mean there is nothing to do. Saying that “nothing is in need of change” does—not—mean that “nothing is in need of change.”

Saying “we are already Buddha” is not enough if we don’t realize that, act like that!

Simple, exaggerated example …

Perhaps a fellow sits down to Zazen for the first time who is a violent man, a thief and alcoholic. He hears that “all is Buddha just as it is“, so thinks that Zen practice means “all is a jewel just as it is, so thus maybe I can simply stay that way, just drink and beat my wife and rob strangers“. Well, no, because while a thief and wife-beater is just that …
http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...%28Part-XIV%29

As to "needing to replace" one thing by another, I once used the analogy of a hammer. Our "self" beating ourself in the head with categories, divisions, frictions, aversions and attractions is a lot like our beating ourself over the head with a hammer. You might say that simply stopping to do so is "replacing one action with another", or simply to stop an action and replace it with stillness ... but I say to simply STOP one way or another. Put the hammer down. Call it what you will.

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?7704-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%28Part-II%29

Eric, you remind me a bit of this old Zen story ...

A university professor went to visit a Japanese Zen teacher. While the teacher quietly served tea, the professor talked about Zen, the philosophy of Zen, his opinions about why Zen was this or that, about the need to replace one thing with another, about how much an original principle might be re-cast or re-interpreted before its meaning has changed enough to break the consensus. The teacher poured the visitor's cup to the brim, and then kept pouring.

The professor watched the overflowing cup until he could no longer restrain himself.

"It's overfull! No more will go in!" the professor blurted.

"You are like this cup," the teacher replied, "How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup."

There is a difference between asking some questions ... and having one's head filled with wrestling debates and preconceptions.

Are you sitting each day, dropping all thought of replacing or not replacing, doing or not doing, casting or not recasting, self or no self, physicists or no physicists?

Gassho, Jundo

[Taigu]

Eric,

Humbly, in your presentation, everything spot on, but most things coming from the wrong place. Cut this. Cut~nurture this. How to?
As you walk through this gate with your mouth open, I see nothing but saliva and useless foaming. That would certainly fill a book. In life, hopeless.
How do you gassho? How do you walk to work? How do you eat and sleep and kiss?
You are trapped in the "why~world".

with a because~world not far away...

Zen start when whys are dropped.

hungry ghost like myself a lot of the time, wake up!

gassho


Taigu

[Daitetsu]

Hi Eric,

Does this mean zazen didnt work in your own case...seeing as you are still full of questions?

Sorry, you misunderstood me or I didn't explain it clearly enough.
I wanted to say that I am a very, very (very) curious person per se, and as a result when I came to this practice, I had also so many questions.
However, when you sit regularly (it needn't be for long periods, but best every day), lots of your questions will disappear and you'll understand better. Things will come natural.
BTW: IMHO zazen is not something that works or not - it is just something you do.
Almost anything we do in life has a purpose: we watch movies to be entertained, we read a book to learn something, etc. However, when we do Shikantaza Zazen we just are. Nothing added. No extras. We don't do it to become peaceful, to become relaxed, etc. We just do it to do it. In this way it is the most straightforward, honest thing you can do in life: just naked being, not doing anything to attain something.

I realize all verbal explanations are imperfect...but this is no justification for abandoning all attempts to make sense of the Dharma. To do so would be the ultimate disrespect to all those who sacrificed their lives to preserve it.

I fully agree. I would be the last person to say you shouldn't question things. It's quite the contrary: question everything, doubt everything!

However, it is practice that makes things clearer. Books are fine - in fact, I am one of the worst bookworms you can find -, but practice will answer most of your questions far more effectively than any book can.
How would you explain to someone who does not know what riding a bicycle means how to ride a bicycle? You only learn riding a bicycle through practice. No book in the world can actually teach it.
(I don't know if this is a good analogy...)

Don't stop reading, don't stop questioning - but put more emphasis on the actual practice.
That's at least what I found to be helpful.

Gassho,

Timo