Zen, why bother?

[Kokuu]

Intellectually I assent to this, on paper I get it, but somehow it doesn't touch the marrow. I have a hunch that there's some point to it that I'm currently missing, but at the moment I'm at an impasse with it. I sit because I've decided to, but without going into detail I can't say I get any satisfaction, peace, or anything else from it. It's just routine, and there is increasing resistance, quite often I'd rather sit and read a book or play music than put on the rakusu and sit zazen.

Sometimes I find that it can be good to put down all notions of practice for a while, whether that is on or off the cushion. When I have done that I find two things:

1. I cannot put it down. The precepts are now part of who I am as is much of practice. I can ease back but cannot erase its effects.

2. After a time, I feel the call of the cushion again.

Your experience may vary but it can be a useful exercise in allowing yourself to have a month or so of reading a book or playing music rather than sitting and seeing what happens.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Jundo]

Sometimes I find that it can be good to put down all notions of practice for a while, whether that is on or off the cushion. When I have done that I find two things:

1. I cannot put it down. The precepts are now part of who I am as is much of practice. I can ease back but cannot erase its effects.

2. After a time, I feel the call of the cushion again.

Your experience may vary but it can be a useful exercise in allowing yourself to have a month or so of reading a book or playing music rather than sitting and seeing what happens.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

I am with Kokuu. Stop sitting for awhile. If it is right, you will be called back to sit. Maybe not even every day, or maybe every day, or maybe once in a long while.

I think that wandering away from the path --is-- part of the path.

But the reason for this practice? Nothing less than to realize that we are the whole world come alive as you, me and all things. Then, to live accordingly.

Gassho, J
stlah

[WhiteLotus]

Greetings Myo-jin and friends!


I am relatively new to this tradition, and have not had much experience aside from my interactions here with formal zazen. However I did explore the mind from a very young age, as well as science and the Chinese Zen record, so perhaps my point of view may be helpful.

In my view, "nothingness" is provisional or conventional language. It points at something that no description can express, rather than nothingness in a literal sense. It may seem like a small distinction, but it is very important.

In section 37 of the Wanling record of Huang Po he tells:

"All these phenomena are intrinsically void and yet this Mind with which they are identical is no mere nothingness. By this I mean that it does exist, but in a way too marvellous for us to comprehend."

Concepts are afterthoughts to direct experience. In fact, concepts and thoughts are after effects of subconscious experience. Information enters the senses, travel to the brain, and are processed, stored, and organized according to the associative memory. Then they are projected to the consciousness. Nothingness is a sort of tool which is empty of conceptual associations to enable one to not become deluded by conceptualization.

It seems to me that this is the fundamental of "just sitting". It is a way of remapping or unmapping conditioned associations within the subconscious mind which have been accumulating since beginningless time.

Hongzhi put it this way:

"When you are empty and spontaneously aware, clean and spontaneously clear, you are capable of panoramic consciousness without making an effort to grasp perception, and you are capable of discerning understanding without the burden of conditioned thought. You go beyond being and nothingness, and transcend conceivable feelings. This is only experienced by union with it it is not gotten from another."

Nanquan said it like this:

"The basis of understanding does not come about from perception and cognition. Perception and cognition are conditioned, only existing in relation to objects. The spiritual wonder is impossible to conceive, not relative to anything. That is why it is said that wondrous capacities are spontaneously effective and do not depend on other things.”

Zhaozhou tells:

"This essence existed before the world existed; this essence will not dissolve when the world disintegrates."

From this it seems to me that an important element to understand about zazen is the no aim principle and how it works. No aim doesn't allow the conditioned perceptions or cognition to cloud the mind. Going into the practice trying to uncloud the mind just clouds the mind. As the Xinxin Ming tells:


"The Way is perfect, like vast space where nothing is lacking and nothing is in excess. Indeed, it is due to our choosing to accept or reject that we do not see the true nature of things. Live neither in the entanglements of outer things, nor in inner feelings of emptiness. Be serene in the oneness of things, and such erroneous views will disappear by themselves. When you try to stop activity to achieve passivity, your very effort fills you with activity. As long as you remain in one extreme or the other, you will never know Oneness."

Daily or regular zazen seems to be a way of unmapping the conditioned perceptions and cognition, allowing one to freely enter circumstances in perfect accordance without attachment. However, one can't go into it trying to unmap or decondition, so no aim is a means of resolving this. By not allowing the mind to condition itself through intent, ideation of goals, or outcomes, it remains unconditioned for long enough for the existing mapping to dissolve on its own. Then one is free to function in daily life with ease. I like how Linji navigated this:


"If you want to be free, get to know your real self. It has no form, no appearance, no root, no basis, no abode, but is lively and buoyant.
It responds with versatile facility, but its function cannot be located. Therefore when you look for it you become further from it, when you seek it you turn away from it all the more."

Yuanwu puts it this way:


"If you can give up your former knowledge and understanding, thus making your heart open, not keeping anything at all on your mind, so you experience a clear empty solidity where speech and thought do not apply, you will directly merge with the fundamental source, sinking into the infinite, spontaneously attaining inherent wisdom that has no attainment.
This is called thorough trust and penetrating insight. There is, moreover, still boundless, fathomless, measureless great potential and great function yet to be realized."

Dahui makes an important point about this practice:


"Those who study Zen should be mentally quiet twenty-four hours a day. When you have nothing to do, you should also sit quietly, making the mind alert and the body tranquil.
Eventually, when you are thoroughly practiced in this, body and mind become spontaneously peaceful and calm, and you have some direction in Zen. The perfection of mental silence is only to settle scattered and confused awareness. If you cling to stillness as ultimate, you will be taken in by the false Zen of silent illumination."

You very well may already be familiar with these quotes, and they may not give you much insight into these matters. But it does seem to me that you may have been snared in a sort of trap. Which is awesome!

It is awesome because it provides you the opportunity to navigate it, learn from it, and help sentient beings who may walk a similar route! If I were to speculate about your situation, I might suppose that you may not be honest with yourself about these matters. Maybe you want an aim for sitting zazen, and feel that without an aim it is a pointless exercise. You may feel unfulfilled in your life because you have associated nothingness with pointlessness.

However, since there is no inherent meaning to life and death, you're completely free to give it intense, direct, intimate meaning. Free from the constraints of conceptual associations and ideology.

Free from notions of emptiness in all directions. As Dazhu recalls:


"My teacher said to me, “The treasure house within you contains everything, and you are free to use it. You don’t need to seek outside.”

I also suspect that you were naturally born with all sorts of good aspirations, and that along the way you've lost touch with those realities by taking aimlessness as pointlessness. However, you are inherently free to discard that unhealthy view, and move into new perspectives and options about your future. Whether or not it includes zazen practice or something else. In this case I would, as a lay practitioner and not a teacher, advise you to consider the 360 degree approach. With the freedom and clarity directly experienced from zazen, not attached to delusion or compulsive passions, survey your life honestly and be fair to yourself. Have compassion on your own human being as it is. See what your life circumstances are about, look closely to see where the imbalance exists. Trace back these deep feelings you've shared with us here to see their source.

Often I find the source is completely unrelated to the feelings I have towards activities like zazen. For example, neglecting the creative side of our lives deprives us of the very substance to engage fully in logical matters, neglecting logical matters deprives us of the consistency to develop our creativity. Balance is always key. So if there is a sense of unfulfillment in your life, it is likely the result of neglecting some part of your life. Only you can answer that through deep introspective work.

I like how it is expressed in Archimedes story about finding the solution to measuring the volume of an oddly shaped object. He spent days locked into the logical part of his being, trying hard to figure it out, neglecting the creative comforts of simple relaxation. Tensely trying to find the answer. Yet when his wife urged him to relax and go take a damn bath for god's sake, he listened to her. When stepping into the bath and the water rose, it suddenly struck him. Displacement of water was a way of measuring the volume of an oddly shaped object. He then ran naked down the streets to report his discovery.

That is my simple advice. Not to run down the street naked, but survey your life circumstances with clarity. Find the area of imbalance and simply restore balance. Take a break from zazen if you must, or try to engage with it as a completely new practice. Look at areas of your life you've been neglecting. The solution is already within your treasure house, and you are completely free to use it!

I hope this finds resonance with you my friend!

Much love,
Salem
sala

[Myo-jin]

So, is your concern strictly about sitting? What about the rest of buddhist practice? Do you find it does not benefit your life in any way?

Gassho
sat lah

That’s a good question, and one that deserves careful consideration.

Whether it’s a benefit or not I would say that I came to Zen Buddhism because it provided a conceptual framework that addressed experiences and observations on what we might call emptiness that occurred over the course of an adjacent but related practice, where I was in a place not of acquiring something new, but of stripping away nonessentials. What remained looked a lot like zen so of course indug in deeply. Things I’d read on the subject in the past made sense on reexamination, so naturally my interest in zen practice increased, even though I noticed areas that I don’t understand, and things that seem superfluous, at least for now.

On the other hand, I’ve found that zen as I’ve understood it tends to short circuit things like ambition, desire, and even motivation in somebody like me. Vowing to save all beings if taken literally seems noble but ultimately futile, and I have to wonder what happens when there are just a bunch of bodhisattva hanging around after all beings are saved saying ‘after you, ‘no, after you’, as each tries to be the last!

I could ask, as Kokuu points out, why we wear the robe and sit zazen, but my reductionist tendency has brought this to a pint of ‘why do anything?’ In some ways it seems as though I’ve interpreted zen as a sort of benevolent nihilism with robes, and on that basis even doing anything other than what is necessary for life, or just for fun, it’s become somewhat redundant in the process.

Anyway, there’s enough background there perhaps for you to diagnose whatever I’m misunderstanding, so I’d be happy to have my mistakes corrected.

Gassho
Myojin

[Bion]

On the other hand, I’ve found that zen as I’ve understood it tends to short circuit things like ambition, desire, and even motivation in somebody like me. Vowing to save all beings if taken literally seems noble but ultimately futile, and I have to wonder what happens when there are just a bunch of bodhisattva hanging around after all beings are saved saying ‘after you, ‘no, after you’, as each tries to be the last!

I could ask, as Kokuu points out, why we wear the robe and sit zazen, but my reductionist tendency has brought this to a pint of ‘why do anything?’ In some ways it seems as though I’ve interpreted zen as a sort of benevolent nihilism with robes, and on that basis even doing anything other than what is necessary for life, or just for fun, it’s become somewhat redundant in the process.

Thanks for entertaining my question there.
I think the "zen as I've understood it" part of your statement there is key. We have a tendency to always latch on to whatever we feel we've gotten a decent understanding of and get stuck in a one-sided view, which means we stop investigating. None of our ancestors' Zen was one sided, and even for master Dogen it changed throughout his life based on conditions he found himself in, so he never stopped investigating either. The Shobogenzo was always a draft, even when it got to 75 fascicles and even then, he began a brand new collection, with a very different tone and approach.

Ambition, desire and motivation are not inherently wrong. The Buddha himself spoke of noble and ignoble pursuits for folks to engage in. Master Dogen worked to build a monastery, wrote down rules for it, left many writings to teach and build a community, met with donors and trained monks, even passing on the Dharma to others, with the hope it will continue. If anything, Zen practice, I think, helps us be better equipped to judge what is worth pursuing and what not, what is skillful and what not and then how to engage with things in a way that is beneficial and wholesome. It also helps us see how we make those judgments and the nature of those judgments.

You speak of the vows as ultimately futile, but here's the gist, and I said this in a little talk I shared here, in the Unsui Corner : when we understand impermanence and conditioned arising, we realize that all action is equally futile, since it is subject to change, but it also means everything can be seen as equally important. For example, eating to live is ultimately futile, since we are actively dying anyway, right? Yet, we choose healthy food, we cook to make it tasty, we even find ways to make food special, by sharing it with friends, family etc. Everything we encounter is our own life so we simply engage with it in the best way we can, trying our best to not squander it since we are here. Buddhist practice serves that purpose, I believe.

"Why do anything?" is a great question to explore, I think. But it is an active exploration, as we navigate existence moment by moment. What set of causes did I put in place to end up right here, how do I engage with being right where I am and what kind of causes is this engagement - my doing or non-doing - going to put in place? Am I making sure my vision is always clear? Does Zen practice maybe help with precisely that clarity?

Sorry for running very long.

Gassho
sat lah

[Myo-jin]

Thanks for entertaining my question there.
I think the "zen as I've understood it" part of your statement there is key. We have a tendency to always latch on to whatever we feel we've gotten a decent understanding of and get stuck in a one-sided view, which means we stop investigating. None of our ancestors' Zen was one sided, and even for master Dogen it changed throughout his life based on conditions he found himself in, so he never stopped investigating either. The Shobogenzo was always a draft, even when it got to 75 fascicles and even then, he began a brand new collection, with a very different tone and approach.

Ambition, desire and motivation are not inherently wrong. The Buddha himself spoke of noble and ignoble pursuits for folks to engage in. Master Dogen worked to build a monastery, wrote down rules for it, left many writings to teach and build a community, met with donors and trained monks, even passing on the Dharma to others, with the hope it will continue. If anything, Zen practice, I think, helps us be better equipped to judge what is worth pursuing and what not, what is skillful and what not and then how to engage with things in a way that is beneficial and wholesome. It also helps us see how we make those judgments and the nature of those judgments.

You speak of the vows as ultimately futile, but here's the gist, and I said this in a little talk I shared here, in the Unsui Corner : when we understand impermanence and conditioned arising, we realize that all action is equally futile, since it is subject to change, but it also means everything can be seen as equally important. For example, eating to live is ultimately futile, since we are actively dying anyway, right? Yet, we choose healthy food, we cook to make it tasty, we even find ways to make food special, by sharing it with friends, family etc. Everything we encounter is our own life so we simply engage with it in the best way we can, trying our best to not squander it since we are here. Buddhist practice serves that purpose, I believe.

"Why do anything?" is a great question to explore, I think. But it is an active exploration, as we navigate existence moment by moment. What set of causes did I put in place to end up right here, how do I engage with being right where I am and what kind of causes is this engagement - my doing or non-doing - going to put in place? Am I making sure my vision is always clear? Does Zen practice maybe help with precisely that clarity?

Sorry for running very long.

Gassho
sat lah

Precisely, it’d be a bit rich to dismiss a whole tradition based on a few years investigation. My sense is that clearly I’m not getting something, or as you indicate, seeing only one side.

As usual you raise some food for thought, I suppose since there’s little I can do to force understanding so I might as well let it digest in its own time, perhaps things will clarify if I let it settle.

gassho
satlah

Myojin

[Bion]

Precisely, it’d be a bit rich to dismiss a whole tradition based on a few years investigation. My sense is that clearly I’m not getting something, or as you indicate, seeing only one side.

As usual you raise some food for thought, I suppose since there’s little I can do to force understanding so I might as well let it digest in its own time, perhaps things will clarify if I let it settle.

gassho
satlah

Myojin

Definitely go gently on yourself. We all have moments we spin out of control or out doubts and ideas get the best of us...

Gassho
sat lah

[Tairin]

The way I see it this. Even if the whole Zen thing is bunk, there is benefit to sitting quietly for a period each day and following a few rules on how to be a good person, living a helpful and wholesome life.


Tairin
sat today and lah

[Houzan]

Echoing what Bion said about us all spinning out of control sometimes, Jundo’s “off the path is also part of the path”, and Kokuu’s words: your very action of posting your question reflects a very active relationship to your practice. I hope you manage to carry your doubts and exploration proudly!

Gassho, Hōzan
satlah

[Furyu]

I was attracted to zen because of its direct and minimalistic approach to a spiritual path, to clarity of mind, where its essence is beyond words and the intellect. Organized religion also comes with a lot of what I call window dressing (statues, paintings, etc. - no offense) and Buddhims has a lot of that as well. In my case, I also enjoy the 'window dressing' in Buddhism, but realize that the essence is not there. As for zazen, I am happy to sit with no thought of a goal, nothing to attain, some days it is very peaceful and others, I just get to see the state of my muddled mind. Why I, or anyone, chooses to do this every day is a good question. I find that it is beneficial in fact to observe the various states of the mind and to learn not to get sucked in by our superficial thinking minds (as well as the intrusions of our other senses). In my experience, attachment to illusions of solidity, of past and present, etc. does cause suffering and this practice is beneficial to reduce that suffering. I find that there can be an enduring and profound state of peace which can be present even in difficult moments when we can take the equanimity of zazen into the rest of our day. That said, some days I don't feel like sitting. Sometimes I sit anyways, and some days I don't. Since Jukai last year, I've been a bit obsessed about digently sitting every day, but realize now that this attitude can sometimes detract from the freshness of practice. I now don't worry about taking a break when needed.

Also, what Tairin said!

Sorry to be long.


Furyu
sat/lah

[Mujin]

Do you ever get this feeling? I get up, or settle down for the night, look and my zafu sitting there, and think, why bother? I know that zazen won't change anything. Original mind/buddha mind, is there whether I sit zazen or not.

My sitting zazen or not makes no difference, whether I'm mindful or not makes no difference, the universe at large will carry on much as it would have whether or not I sit zazen (except for the fact of my sitting, rather than for example, having a beer and playing video games). Since, like all sentient beings I'm on the one way trip from cradle to grave, out of nothing, back to nothing, with a brief stop off in the sunlight of life, what difference does it make if I spend part of that time sitting on a cushion facing the wall?

One thing that drew me to zen practice was the dropping off of spiritual baggage, but it seems that somewhere along the line, my reasons for practicing at all have fizzled away with them. Nothing to aim for? Ok, then no need to aim. Nowhere to go? Ok, here is fine, the view is nice, better than facing that wall for hours.

I was hesitant to post anything here on the subject. Perhaps expecting a 'sit more', in response, meaning I don't really expect a useful response, but since the question keeps coming up, this is the place to post it I suppose.

Gassho

Satlah
M.

Myo-jin,

I have experienced this very thought at times myself, not only for Zazen but Buddhism in general. At times, it all seems like I can get the same results from a Tony Robbins seminar as I do from Buddhism, that it's all just "in my head". These thoughts have been coming less and less as Zazen teaches me more and more. The more I drop expectation of anything or seeking anything from the Zazen, the more it teaches me during Zazen. I have "seen" things as they are, I have "seen" my thoughts as just thoughts. I have "felt" what it is like to have no classification for things, the freedom of that.

Zazen is the expression of what you have mentioned, that Buddha nature is already there, and the like. Sitting is the fullest expression of what a Buddha does. The Universe goes along, and you a part of it, which is also expressed in your Zazen. All time and space is where you are when you sit Zazen, as I believe Dogen has said.

When the "spiritual baggage" gets dropped, it can be a bit of a disorienting time. You had these to hold on to, for better or for worse, and now you have to find your way without them. I know this road well. At some point, you may realize you never really had the baggage, and that they, and what you are experiencing at their loss, are products of a conditioned mind.

Forgive my going long, and being just a fellow traveler on the path, take what I offer as a simple thought from one brother to another.

Gassho,

Mujin

SatTodayLAH

[Jundo]

Bottom line is that, what one should be getting from this Practice and all the sitting Zazen, is transcendence of the "little self" even while we are in these bodies and life as our "little self."

Myojin (my forest biologist), it is like a little sentient leaf that thinks it is just that leaf, perhaps in "relationships" and "with connections" to other leaves and branches which are separate to itself. That is a limited view.

Instead, the little leaf should come to realize ... to EXPERIENCE and GROK ... that it is not only the "little leaf," but --IS-- the branches, the other leaves, the whole tree, all the other trees, the ground, sky and rain, the forest, the world, space and time and more, the growing and dying, the rain falling. The little leaf is all that, and all that is the little leaf precisely. Then, the little leaf experiences liberation beyond just being its little, fragile self which will fall from the tree in the autumn. Now, the little leaf realizes that there is no place to fall that is not the little leaf too.

When sitting Zazen, the little leaf feels the whole tree, whole forest, whole ground and sky, whole world flowing as this little leaf.

After sitting so, the little leaf gets on with the business of growing and living as the little leaf, but with that insight also in its heart. The leaf now seeks to grow in the sun with grace and dignity befitting the forest.

I think a biologist should get that: That the leaf is actually all of nature and the world come to life as the little leaf, with all time and space contained in its one point in the sun.

I don't think Tony Robbins teaches that.

If you are not getting this from Zazen and all your Zen practice, you are somehow missing out on the main insight and experience. It is something like going to an ice cream parlor with no taste buds after Covid, unable to taste the sweetness.

Gassho, J
stlah

PS - The Treeleaf name came from something I once wrote on the same theme.

[Jundo]

Also ...

On the other hand, I’ve found that zen as I’ve understood it tends to short circuit things like ambition, desire, and even motivation in somebody like me. Vowing to save all beings if taken literally seems noble but ultimately futile, and I have to wonder what happens when there are just a bunch of bodhisattva hanging around after all beings are saved saying ‘after you, ‘no, after you’, as each tries to be the last!

I could ask, as Kokuu points out, why we wear the robe and sit zazen, but my reductionist tendency has brought this to a pint of ‘why do anything?’ In some ways it seems as though I’ve interpreted zen as a sort of benevolent nihilism with robes, and on that basis even doing anything other than what is necessary for life, or just for fun, it’s become somewhat redundant in the process.

Even though we learn stillness, wholeness, goallessness and silence in Zen practice, that DOES NOT mean we cannot also life an active life of doing, going, working, achieving if we wish. The result is something like "achieving non-achieving," which is something like climbing a mountain, step by step, working hard and making progress ... BUT ... each step is still the same mountain. Each steps is its own arrival at its unique summit. That summit is true at the bottom of the mountain, in the middle or at the top.

It is not nihilism, but overflows with meaning!

We Vow to save all beings, although impossible. It may be something like how you cannot save all trees, but the goal is to save as many as possible, and also to realize that the world does not need saving.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Myo-jin]

Also ...



Even though we learn stillness, wholeness, goallessness and silence in Zen practice, that DOES NOT mean we cannot also life an active life of doing, going, working, achieving if we wish. The result is something like "achieving non-achieving," which is something like climbing a mountain, step by step, working hard and making progress ... BUT ... each step is still the same mountain. Each steps is its own arrival at its unique summit. That summit is true at the bottom of the mountain, in the middle or at the top.

It is not nihilism, but overflows with meaning!

We Vow to save all beings, although impossible. It may be something like how you cannot save all trees, but the goal is to save as many as possible, and also to realize that the world does not need saving.

Gassho, J
stlah

Thank you, and thank you to others who have also added their thoughts. As I am looking for clarity I don't want to bog things down trying to reply to everybody or address every point made, but it's all grist to the mill..

My experience of zazen (shikantaza anyway) is much as Leonard Cohen described it. "Nothing happens,......and a while later, nothing happens again".

I'm tempted to try to continue to explain my experience, but I won't because I've already been more public than I'm comfortable with. All I will say is that on one level I understand precisely what you are saying, if I can summarise: Transcendence of the 'little self' by awareness of the whole of which the 'leaf' is just part, and not separate. Goallessness of action, i.e. action is for it's own sake, I don't play music because I want to be a famous musician, but because I enjoy it, that's enough. And finally compassion expressed in the Bodhisattva vow not as a solution to all the worlds problems, but as an ongoing attitude and way of living.

Part of me resists, still asking, "but what's the point?, but then I begin to see that we could paint a Rembrandt or a Bosch of our life, and that's an ongoing choice that we make whether we act or no.

Gassho
Sattlah
Myojin

[Jundo]

I'm tempted to try to continue to explain my experience, but I won't because I've already been more public than I'm comfortable with. All I will say is that on one level I understand precisely what you are saying, if I can summarise: Transcendence of the 'little self' by awareness of the whole of which the 'leaf' is just part, and not separate. Goallessness of action, i.e. action is for it's own sake, I don't play music because I want to be a famous musician, but because I enjoy it, that's enough. And finally compassion expressed in the Bodhisattva vow not as a solution to all the worlds problems, but as an ongoing attitude and way of living.

Then maybe the practice is not for you. Not everything suits everybody, and we all have our own Karma.

But if I may now use a music analogy ... the special aspect of this practice is our realization that we are not just a musician playing a song on a guitar with strings. We realize that we are also the guitar, and the vibrating stings and the music, and music and guitar is precisely who we are ... and the whole universe is a vibrating instrument ... and this is who we are too ...

... and the whole universal concert is fully embodied in every single note everywhere ... (the note or "the leaf" is not just "part" of the whole ... But rather, it --IS-- the whole in most intimate and radical meaning, and the whole is blossoming in every atom of the leaf or single note) ...

... and so we pick up our little guitar and just seek to strum with grace and in tune, as best we can. No need to be famous (as a matter of fact, Master Dogen advised against living for fame and gain.)

If someone does not realize this truth, then it is okay. Just strum for fun, be gentle, and peaceful. No harm in that.

Gassho, J
stlah