Zen, why bother?

[Myo-jin]

Do you ever get this feeling? I get up, or settle down for the night, look and my zafu sitting there, and think, why bother? I know that zazen won't change anything. Original mind/buddha mind, is there whether I sit zazen or not.

My sitting zazen or not makes no difference, whether I'm mindful or not makes no difference, the universe at large will carry on much as it would have whether or not I sit zazen (except for the fact of my sitting, rather than for example, having a beer and playing video games). Since, like all sentient beings I'm on the one way trip from cradle to grave, out of nothing, back to nothing, with a brief stop off in the sunlight of life, what difference does it make if I spend part of that time sitting on a cushion facing the wall?

One thing that drew me to zen practice was the dropping off of spiritual baggage, but it seems that somewhere along the line, my reasons for practicing at all have fizzled away with them. Nothing to aim for? Ok, then no need to aim. Nowhere to go? Ok, here is fine, the view is nice, better than facing that wall for hours.

I was hesitant to post anything here on the subject. Perhaps expecting a 'sit more', in response, meaning I don't really expect a useful response, but since the question keeps coming up, this is the place to post it I suppose.

Gassho

Satlah
M.

[Shinshi]

Hi Myo-jin,

Well, that is one way to look at it. I think that sometimes the idea that "Zen is good for nothing" gets a bit oversold. Of course, I am just a priest in training, but I find that my Zen sitting practice is good for me. Just because we don't aim to get to a particular thing, that doesn't mean our practice doesn't take us somewhere. I find that my practice has taken me on wonderful journeys of discovery and deeper understanding. But that only happens when I practice diligently. And the key word is practice. We don't arrive, we don't achieve, we don't accomplish, we just continue to practice and see where that practice takes us. How does it inform our lives.

My practice won't be the same as yours. Because our lives our different, and our journeys will be different. So I can't say where your practice might take you.

But my practice has shown me how I can be petty, and how to give that up. My practice has shown me that I can be angry, and how attachments feed that anger and give it birth. And how I can let go of all of it. It helps me to see where the damaged areas in my life are - and how to work on them softly, with care and compassion. My practice has shown me how to give up notions about how things "should" be, and to see how those ideas led to suffering and pain for myself and others. So many journeys I have been on. And I am still only getting started! It helps me handle suffering when it arises, and it helps me see into the conditions that cause it to arise.

My practice has taught me how to try and approach life with beginners mind and how that helps tear down walls that I have built up over the years.

Wiser folks than I will be along and give you better advice, but this is how I see this today.

I wanted to add that I certainly have been where you are in my journey. For me, sometimes I didn't see where I was going - I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere. But once I gave up the idea of somewhere to get, I could see where I was getting too. Hope that makes sense.

Gassho,

Shinshi

[Jundo]

What Shinshi said.

For me, before, during or after a day of running around, chasing goals, achieving or failing, judging, facing worries and regrets, happy news and sad events ... feeling like one broken piece in this world filled with other broken pieces, some sharp and scary ...

... it is precious to sit for a time, even some minutes, with no place in need of running, nothing lacking so nothing to chase, all goals achieved by sitting, winning and losing just what they are, tomorrow and yesterday allowed to be, with a light of clarity shining through all the happy and sad days of this world.

Then, after those minutes, returning to this life of places to go, things to do, problems to solve or simply face, some goals to accomplish, the latest news of the world ... all is the same as before, yet not the same at all.

In this world where we feel quite often like broken pieces, it is precious to recall the Peace of being One Piece, whole and unbroken, that is what we are, and we are such. Biologist friend, we can lose seeing the forest for the trees, that the trees are just the forest, the forest fully held in each root and leaf of every tree. In fact, our sitting may be experiencing the life of a tree for a moment, deeply rooted, a place in the soil and sun, being just to be.

If I did not sit a little bit each day, and also bring the mind of Zazen out into the world 1000 times a day, I might never get much past the first sentence above, of chasing, lacking, craving, fearing and broken pieces.

Gassho, J
stlah

[FNJ]

Thought provoking question Myo-jin . I personally find meditation, which I suppose in my case is mostly shamatha (spent a while with Shambala) to be quite relaxing. It doesn't feel like nothing. It feels more like something I'm dependent on to help calm down my nervous system (which I guess is its own problem). What I wonder more about is need for organized religion. Like really, what's the point of that? I often wonder what Gautama would have thought about having been made a statue that is revered around the world?

Just some thoughts

Sat today, Lah
Gassho,
Niall

[Jundo]

Thought provoking question Myo-jin . I personally find meditation, which I suppose in my case is mostly shamatha (spent a while with Shambala) to be quite relaxing. It doesn't feel like nothing. It feels more like something I'm dependent on to help calm down my nervous system (which I guess is its own problem). What I wonder more about is need for organized religion. Like really, what's the point of that? I often wonder what Gautama would have thought about having been made a statue that is revered around the world?

Just some thoughts

Sat today, Lah
Gassho,
Niall

Hi Niall,

Ah, Shikantaza is sitting each day without need for even shamatha, no desire to relax or not relax, nothing to calm or stimulate, no goal to pursue or payoff required. One sits as the radical completion, wholeness and equanimity of Just Sitting. One might say that, putting down even the need to relax is the True Relaxation, while having no goal of either calm or stimulation is the Ultimate Calm. Please sit some minutes of Shikantaza each day while with us, even if you engage in other meditation and practices at other times.

As to organized religion, I tend to agree. The only point of Sangha is friends helping friends, people encouraging people (like Myojin, above), with old sailors helping young sailors learn the ropes and sea. The statues, chants and robes are just works of art, music and tradition that help us recall some Wisdom and Compassion now and then.

Gassho, Jundo
stlah

[FNJ]

Hi Niall,

Ah, Shikantaza is sitting each day without need for even shamatha, no desire to relax or not relax, nothing to calm or stimulate, no goal to pursue or payoff required. One sits as the radical completion, wholeness and equanimity of Just Sitting. One might say that, putting down even the need to relax is the True Relaxation, while having no goal of either calm or stimulation is the Ultimate Calm. Please sit some minutes of Shikantaza each day while with us, even if you engage in other meditation and practices at other times.

As to organized religion, I tend to agree. The only point of Sangha is friends helping friends, people encouraging people (like Myojin, above), with old sailors helping young sailors learn the ropes and sea. The statues, chants and robes are just works of art, music and tradition that help us recall some Wisdom and Compassion now and then.

Hi Jundo,

How is it possible to deliberately "try" to sit and practice this "goaless" shikantaza? I mean at some point I suppose when I forget to put my attention on my breath (as is the direction for shamatha), in that moment I am probably doing something like shikantaza (which let's face it I probably forget to focus on my breath half of the time anyway). So it would almost seem like Shikantaza is what I'm doing when I forget to do the thing I'm "supposed" to be doing?

I have sat with a few of your videos and It's interesting for me practicing together/alone. Hopefully sometime soon my schedule will line up for one of the "Zazenkai".

Thank you
Sat today, Lah
Niall

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

How is it possible to deliberately "try" to sit and practice this "goaless" shikantaza? I mean at some point I suppose when I forget to put my attention on my breath (as is the direction for shamatha), in that moment I am probably doing something like shikantaza (which let's face it I probably forget to focus on my breath half of the time anyway). So it would almost seem like Shikantaza is what I'm doing when I forget to do the thing I'm "supposed" to be doing?

I have sat with a few of your videos and It's interesting for me practicing together/alone. Hopefully sometime soon my schedule will line up for one of the "Zazenkai".

Hah. The "try" of Shikantaza is subtle: Of course, we must have the goal of sitting down, and try to get to the cushion to do so.

But once there, our attitude is very special.

Shikantaza Zazen must be sat, for the time it is sat, with the student profoundly trusting deep in her bones that sitting itself is a complete and sacred act, the one and only action that need be done in the whole universe in that instant of sitting. This truth should not be thought about or voiced in so many words, but must be silently and subtly felt deep down. The student must taste vibrantly that the mere act of sitting Zazen, in that moment, is whole and thoroughly complete, the total fruition of life’s goals, with nothing lacking and nothing to be added to the bare fact of sitting here and now. There must be a sense that the single performance of crossing the legs (or sitting in some other balanced posture) is the realization of all that was ever sought, that there is simply no other place to go in the world nor thing left to do besides sitting in such posture. No matter how busy one’s life or how strongly one’s heart may tempt one to be elsewhere, for the time of sitting all other concerns are put aside. Zazen is the one task and experience that brings meaning and fruition to that time, with nothing else to do. This fulfillment in “Just Sitting” must be felt with a tangible vibrancy and energy, trusting that one is sitting at the very pinnacle of life.

...

The ability to be at rest completely, to realize the preciousness and wholeness of life in this moment is a skill we have lost in this busy world. We chase after achievements, are overwhelmed with jobs that feel undone, and feel that there are endless places to go and people to see. The world can seem a broken and hopeless place. Thus, it is vital that we learn to sit each day with no other place in need of going, no feeling of brokenness nor judgment of lack, nothing more in need of achieving in that time but sitting itself. We sit with the sense that there is nothing to fix or place in need of getting, because this “not needing” is a wisdom that we so rarely taste. How tragic if we instead turn our Zazen or other meditation into just one more battle for achievement, a race to get some peaceful place, attain some craved prize or spiritual reward. Or, on the other hand, how equally tragic if we use Zazen just as a break from life, a little escape, never tasting the wholeness and completeness of life. By doing so, Zazen becomes just one more symptom of the rat race, and the prize is out of reach. True peace comes not by chasing, but by resting now in peace.

In fact, when we truly taste to the marrow the real meaning of “nothing to achieve”, we have finally reached a great spiritual achievement! As strange as it sounds, resting in stillness without need to run is, in fact, truly getting somewhere!

More here: https://forum.treeleaf.org/forum/tea...a-explanations

With such attitude, there is nothing remaining to "do" "try" or "attain" in sitting. Sitting is not "instrumentalist" at all, and those all is accomplished.

Why do we sit such way? It is the medicine for this world of Dukkha, in which we constantly "do" "try" and seek to "attain."

Gassho, J
stlah

[Kaitan]

This conversation reminded me a quote from Rumi:

In order to understand the dance one must be still. And in order to truly understand stillness one must dance

Perhaps it can help you, Myojin.

stlah, Kaitan

[Bion]

Hi, Myo. I can't tell you why you should practice, but I can share my own approach.
I will use master Dogen's words as he concludes the last teaching he wrote down.
He says that to encounter the buddha dharma is difficult and to receive a human body is likewise difficult. I recognize that for myself, that, as a human, I have certain abilities that make it so that I can forge a path for myself in this life that is not based on just basic needs, like animals, that is not just instinctive and driven by impulses or desires of the senses and mind. I take that to be a privilege.
The Buddha 's very first teaching was that of the commonality of suffering and he expanded on it for 40 years, until he died, when, as per a Mahayana sutra he gave one last instruction: "you should always single-mindedly strive diligently to seek the way out of here. The dharmas of all world, whether changing or unchanging, are all marked by decomposition and instability". Master Dogen literally says, after quoting this, that "this is the treasury of the true dharma eye, wondrous mind of the Tathagata". For me, "the way out of here" is the key expression and by it I understand, on a mundane level, the way to a life lived well, fueled by wisdom and enlightenment, with the ability to see beyond our usual discriminative mind, beyond judgments and divisions. Buddhist practice makes use of this wonderful mind of ours, and helps us realize the true nature of everything, which in turn, enables us to live life well, to have a clear path, to not make a mess of everything. I think that's a pretty good deal So, I engage in practice because I know it to be good through and through.

Probably not the answer you'd expect, but there you go..

Gassho
sat lah

[Jundo]

Hi, Myo. I can't tell you why you should practice, but I can share my own approach.
I will use master Dogen's words as he concludes the last teaching he wrote down.
He says that to encounter the buddha dharma is difficult and to receive a human body is likewise difficult. I recognize that for myself, that, as a human, I have certain abilities that make it so that I can forge a path for myself in this life that is not based on just basic needs, like animals, that is not just instinctive and driven by impulses or desires of the senses and mind. I take that to be a privilege.
The Buddha 's very first teaching was that of the commonality of suffering and he expanded on it for 40 years, until he died, when, as per a Mahayana sutra he gave one last instruction: "you should always single-mindedly strive diligently to seek the way out of here. The dharmas of all world, whether changing or unchanging, are all marked by decomposition and instability". Master Dogen literally says, after quoting this, that "this is the treasury of the true dharma eye, wondrous mind of the Tathagata". For me, "the way out of here" is the key expression and by it I understand, on a mundane level, the way to a life lived well, fueled by wisdom and enlightenment, with the ability to see beyond our usual discriminative mind, beyond judgments and divisions. Buddhist practice makes use of this wonderful mind of ours, and helps us realize the true nature of everything, which in turn, enables us to live life well, to have a clear path, to not make a mess of everything. I think that's a pretty good deal So, I engage in practice because I know it to be good through and through.

Probably not the answer you'd expect, but there you go..

Gassho
sat lah

Nice.

[Myo-jin]

Much to digest here so I won’t attempt to respond to all at once, or even piecemeal. I’ll be coming back to the responses on this thread to ruminate and digest. Thanks all so far for your responses.

Gassho

M

[Jundo]

Myojin, I was working on testing Emi Jido today, so I asked her your questions ...
.

Gassho, J
stlah

[Kokuu]

Hi Myo-jin

You may well already know Case 16 of The Gateless Gate which deals with this exact question:

Unmon [Yunmen] asked: "The world is so wide; why do you answer the bell and don ceremonial robes?"

What he is asking is, like you, when everything is buddha nature, and we can go anywhere and do anything and still be walking the way, why do we put on our robes (or at least rakusu) and sit when the bell sounds?

We all need to find our own answer to that.

As others have said, for me it is a place to put down the discrimination and achieving mind of everyday life and rest in what is just here, and then take that into life off the cushion. Life off the cushion is 'just this' too but it can be harder to see among the bustle of worldly activity. Zazen goes right back to the source, and is a well to drink deep from, the essence of practice enlightenment.

Sometimes I find my desire to sit is strong, sometimes less so. Still I sit because there is faith in this practice observed by all of our ancestors, and personal experience of what it has to offer. Does it change anything? Maybe, maybe not, but we can only begin with ourselves and who else is there to be the eyes of Manjushri and hands of Kannon?

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Myo-jin]

Again some useful insights al round. The general consensus seems to be that why a person sits (or not) is very personal, but the core message would be about choosing to be present with the moment, without distractions, letting go of cares, 'opening the hand of thought' as Uchiyama Roshi puts it.

Intellectually I assent to this, on paper I get it, but somehow it doesn't touch the marrow. I have a hunch that there's some point to it that I'm currently missing, but at the moment I'm at an impasse with it. I sit because I've decided to, but without going into detail I can't say I get any satisfaction, peace, or anything else from it. It's just routine, and there is increasing resistance, quite often I'd rather sit and read a book or play music than put on the rakusu and sit zazen.

In any case, my sense is that this isn't going to resolve so much by thinking about it as by letting the practice find it's place in a life that is increasingly bare of spiritual practices where it was once overfull. Thanks again for everybody's insights, personal lived experience on the subject is invaluable.

Gassho

Sattlah (and about to again)

Myojin

[Bion]

Again some useful insights al round. The general consensus seems to be that why a person sits (or not) is very personal, but the core message would be about choosing to be present with the moment, without distractions, letting go of cares, 'opening the hand of thought' as Uchiyama Roshi puts it.

Intellectually I assent to this, on paper I get it, but somehow it doesn't touch the marrow. I have a hunch that there's some point to it that I'm currently missing, but at the moment I'm at an impasse with it. I sit because I've decided to, but without going into detail I can't say I get any satisfaction, peace, or anything else from it. It's just routine, and there is increasing resistance, quite often I'd rather sit and read a book or play music than put on the rakusu and sit zazen.

In any case, my sense is that this isn't going to resolve so much by thinking about it as by letting the practice find it's place in a life that is increasingly bare of spiritual practices where it was once overfull. Thanks again for everybody's insights, personal lived experience on the subject is invaluable.

Gassho

Sattlah (and about to again)

Myojin

So, is your concern strictly about sitting? What about the rest of buddhist practice? Do you find it does not benefit your life in any way?

Gassho
sat lah