"The fire"

[galen]

I just placed a little Dharma-wager about the below statement on a split thread ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showt...Eat-My-Zafu%21

Thanks for reposting this, a little more cleaned up and to the pointedness. Well done.

[disastermouse]

Hi Willow,

I just want to drop in that these issues may seem like a "philosophical discussion", but truly they go to the heart of Zen and all Mahayana Buddhism. All the Koans, the Zazen, the Mahayana Sutras, the writings by the great Teachers ... truly all arise from and center on this. Sometimes this fact may be lost on folks who believe that "Zen" is beyond and rejects all "ideas, views and doctrines" ... and thus has not ideas, views and doctrines. But such is not the case.

Rather, when folks of old said that "Zen" is beyond all "ideas, views and doctrines" they meant (itself a kind of doctrine) that the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha (which we are discussing) is beyond all divisions, all "ideas, views and doctrines". So, the best way to approach and realize the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha is thus to sit in Zazen ( Shikantaza, work with Koans and the like) dropping all ideas, views and doctrines. Thereby our little self, with all its little ideas and views ... comes to embody that which is beyond (yet spawns) all divisions, ideas and views.

Why is that important? Why did perhaps every single Zen teacher of old that I know spend so much time and effort to Teach just this? Is it just philosophy and a waste of time compared to your now dealing with your old mother, who is very sick, or other matters in life?

I would answer by saying that this Teaching is,　in fact, one of the greatest gifts to someone who is dealing with sickness, old age, life and death and all human problems. It is not merely a "philosophical debate" because, when one has truly unpierced this Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha that all the old teachers spoke about, one learns that sickness, old age, life and death, the broken heart and struggle you are dealing with ... is not just that. Further, it is not merely to be understood on an intellectual level, but rather right in our bones through this Zen Practice.

I hope that is clear. Freedom, Wisdom, Compassion arise here ... when we can live this "No Doctrine Doctrine".

Gassho, J

This is very clear, Jundo. Zen is not to delude ourselves into thinking that transcending life and death means there is no life and death or that we can just 'emptiness' ourselves into some sort of mental state wherein we are untouchable, emotionless, and everything is joy and cupcakes all around. Everything is joy and cupcakes - but that joy and cupcakes still manifests as illness, death, and 'loss'.

Please correct if necessary.

Chet

[Jinyo]

Hi Willow,

I just want to drop in that these issues may seem like a "philosophical discussion", but truly they go to the heart of Zen and all Mahayana Buddhism. All the Koans, the Zazen, the Mahayana Sutras, the writings by the great Teachers ... truly all arise from and center on this. Sometimes this fact may be lost on folks who believe that "Zen" is beyond and rejects all "ideas, views and doctrines" ... and thus has not ideas, views and doctrines. But such is not the case.

Rather, when folks of old said that "Zen" is beyond all "ideas, views and doctrines" they meant (itself a kind of doctrine) that the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha (which we are discussing) is beyond all divisions, all "ideas, views and doctrines". So, the best way to approach and realize the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha is thus to sit in Zazen ( Shikantaza, work with Koans and the like) dropping all ideas, views and doctrines. Thereby our little self, with all its little ideas and views ... comes to embody that which is beyond (yet spawns) all divisions, ideas and views.

Why is that important? Why did perhaps every single Zen teacher of old that I know spend so much time and effort to Teach just this? Is it just philosophy and a waste of time compared to your now dealing with your old mother, who is very sick, or other matters in life?

I would answer by saying that this Teaching is,　in fact, one of the greatest gifts to someone who is dealing with sickness, old age, life and death and all human problems. It is not merely a "philosophical debate" because, when one has truly unpierced this Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha that all the old teachers spoke about, one learns that sickness, old age, life and death, the broken heart and struggle you are dealing with ... is not just that. Further, it is not merely to be understood on an intellectual level, but rather right in our bones through this Zen Practice.

I hope that is clear. Freedom, Wisdom, Compassion arise here ... when we can live this "No Doctrine Doctrine".

Gassho, J

Jundo I am really saddened by your reply which I experience as attacking - even if it's not meant that way. I have been a tree leaf member for nearly a year and I would have thought you would know me enough by now to realise that I'm unlikely to imply that the teachings here are 'unimportant' philosophy.

I was simply trying to understand why a thread that seemed to start off as a reparative move had taken a negative turning. It was not in any way to devalue the teachings here.

I am upset that you would bring up my personal situation, a sensitive issue for me just now, as a means of debate. But to answer your question I see no separation between the teachings here and life as lived and yes - of course an intellectual understanding is useless without a practice that resonates 'right in our bones'.

Gassho

Willow



Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

This is very clear, Jundo. Zen is not to delude ourselves into thinking that transcending life and death means there is no life and death or that we can just 'emptiness' ourselves into some sort of mental state wherein we are untouchable, emotionless, and everything is joy and cupcakes all around. Everything is joy and cupcakes - but that joy and cupcakes still manifests as illness, death, and 'loss'.

Please correct if necessary.

Chet

Sounds delicious. ... both the sweet and bitter and hard to swallow. Lovely, thank you Chet.

[disastermouse]

Reading back through this thread there is a lot of personal stuff - and I'm not sure it can be contained at the level it needs to be contained within a written forum. The way I'm reading it the discord - and what needs to be healed - is wider than the exchange of conflicting ideas. I could of course be wrong.

Mahayana is a very wide path! The Soto forms may seem narrow, but there is a deeper truth.

For what it's worth, I don't think Jundo had any intention of implying that you thought that he was talking merely about philosophy - I think he just wanted to bring the point home because it's very important. Not that I should be speaking for him.


I would like to say that arguably, the rift between myself, Jundo, Taigu, and the sangha was even messier at the time. A lot more divisive language was used and the fight even sprawled outside the sangha with third parties trying to stir up a little shit. And yet there is very little bitterness left. In fact, I've gotten to be closer friends with some of the people with whom I was most contentious at the time.

Chet

[Jundo]

Jundo I am really saddened by your reply which I experience as attacking - even if it's not meant that way. I have been a tree leaf member for nearly a year and I would have thought you would know me enough by now to realise that I'm unlikely to imply that the teachings here are 'unimportant' philosophy.

I was simply trying to understand why a thread that seemed to start off as a reparative move had taken a negative turning. It was not in any way to devalue the teachings here.

I am upset that you would bring up my personal situation, a sensitive issue for me just now, as a means of debate. But to answer your question I see no separation between the teachings here and life as lived and yes - of course an intellectual understanding is useless without a practice that resonates 'right in our bones'.

Gassho

Willow



Gassho

Willow

Hi Willow,

Nothing like that intended by me, of course. I truly meant that I wished I could take away your pain ... everyone's pain ... with these Teachings. Take care.

Gassho, Jundo

[Jinyo]

Mahayana is a very wide path! The Soto forms may seem narrow, but there is a deeper truth.

For what it's worth, I don't think Jundo had any intention of implying that you thought that he was talking merely about philosophy - I think he just wanted to bring the point home because it's very important. Not that I should be speaking for him.


I would like to say that arguably, the rift between myself, Jundo, Taigu, and the sangha was even messier at the time. A lot more divisive language was used and the fight even sprawled outside the sangha with third parties trying to stir up a little shit. And yet there is very little bitterness left. In fact, I've gotten to be closer friends with some of the people with whom I was most contentious at the time.

Chet

There is nothing wrong with conflict Chet if it leads to a better understanding between people.

It does feel that you've gained a great deal from hanging on in here through any conflict.

As hasn't gone unnoticed I can be overtly sensitive - sometimes this plays to my strength and sometimes to my weakness. I don't have a thick skin and I hurt easily and also get upset on the behalf of others.

Anyway - it's all life and practice.

Gassho

Willow

[galen]

There is nothing wrong with conflict Chet if it leads to a better understanding between people.

It does feel that you've gained a great deal from hanging on in here through any conflict.

As hasn't gone unnoticed I can be overtly sensitive - sometimes this plays to my strength and sometimes to my weakness. I don't have a thick skin and I hurt easily and also get upset on the behalf of others.

Anyway - it's all life and practice.

Gassho

Willow

And maybe Willow... the overly overtly sensibilities of which you describe here, might be the causation for being here in this type of Zen forum. I can speak to that from my small self, also. Emotional balance, in keeping more presence in all situations, goes a long way for stability and grounding, esp with the constance of `the sit. Hang in `there, all is well even when its seems its not.

[Dosho]

As hasn't gone unnoticed I can be overtly sensitive - sometimes this plays to my strength and sometimes to my weakness. I don't have a thick skin and I hurt easily and also get upset on the behalf of others.

Me too Willow...I can be very oversensitive, but with the help of the sangha I'm getting more balanced. I'd never want to lose my sensitive side, but assertiveness is good too. Everything in moderation as well as the right time and place.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Rich]

Willow said:
"I'm not all that easy round conflict and perhaps was looking to find a way to heal 'something' - or at least express an acknowledge that a need for healing was in there somewhere. It's why I noted back to Richard's post because he had picked up on this."

Thanks for acknowledging this. Your sensitivity is true. And the healing has already happened, which includes me. In dropping the small I, expressing the truth, we become one. Its a real mystery story.

[Jinyo]

Jundo, Galen, Dosho, Rich,



Willow

[Kyonin]

I will have to agree with Dosho here.

Lets just go sit.

Gassho,

Kyonin

[Shokai]

ditto, ditto

[disastermouse]

Me too Willow...I can be very oversensitive, but with the help of the sangha I'm getting more balanced. I'd never want to lose my sensitive side, but assertiveness is good too. Everything in moderation as well as the right time and place.

Gassho,
Dosho

I don't know how much my opinion counts, Dosho - but I've definitely noticed a change for the better with you. You seem much more confident.

Gassho,

Chet