"The fire"

[Jundo]

But by even trying to integrate 'relative' and 'absolute' Dogen was already on a fool's errand. You can't bring together things that have never been separate to begin with, can you?

They are separate, Chet, because the mind makes "them" separate. Most times in life, we are lost in this world of "samsara" and this and that, love and hate. Sometimes in this Practice, we are lost in the "absolute" beyond all this and that, love and hate (some types of Eastern Practice, and even some flavors of Buddhist Practice, do try to completely escape Samsara). Yet, yes too, as you say, they have never been apart from the start, so nothing to separate. All true.

But how we realize the "Absolute" while in this sometimes beautiful sometimes ugly, love and hate world is tricky business. I see people who do so with clarity, insight, balance, Wisdom, Compassion, Freedom ... and those who seem still as too trapped by self, inbalance, ignorance in this world.

Dogen has a most elegant, lively way of expressing this tangled-untangling dance of Buddhas and common men.

Gassho, J

[galen]

Well, if something seems to work for you, try that and stick to it. I am just a coach, offering tips on improving your pitching arm. In the end, it is your arm and your pitching.

And if it doesn't end up working, come back here and we can try it this other way.

Gassho, J

Jundo,

Seemingly, it doesn't have to be either or. Tomorrow we awaken anew.

[Rich]

You know, I went through it with myself when I recently started posting here again. Why am I doing this? I wondered. I have a sangha, I can read Chet's posts without chiming in, I have done away with most of my Internet posting, what is my agenda? I think truthfully my experience here left a residue I haven't yet quite been able to evade. A bad taste. So perhaps some part of me still tries to make sense of it; perhaps I hoped that some sort of peace could be made. But I see now it is only a rehash that reactivates the old bad taste and discord. Maybe this time I can finally learn my lesson and move on.

Once I was expelled from a group (nothing to do with zen or religion) and it took me 3 years to totally accept it. Feelings would arise out of nowhere like how could they treat me so harshly and unfairly, some anger, a feeling that I was supposed to do something to make a perceived wrong into something right. I knew some of the things I did weren't right but I had apologized and come on I would never make that mistake again. Being excluded, ostracized affects your being at a very primal level. I don't really have a secret on how to deal with this but it seems that time is on my side and trusting yourself is the willingness to deal with it.
On a very deep level this is what practice is all about. At some point all the drama dissolves away and we realize what great actors we are.

[Dosho]

Chet,

I'm not going to engage in this discussion you have going with Jundo because, quite frankly, I can't follow it. You have a keen mind and a wealth of knowledge I once aspired to have. But since coming here to Treeleaf I don't wish for that any more and don't wish for many things in fact. I may be wrong, but I don't believe Jundo is discounting anything about your practice or Stephanie's. He is a Soto Zen priest in the lineage of Dogen, Sawaki, and Nishijima and has the right to run his zendo as he sees fit. Yes, I believe we welcome all perspectives here, but after awhile if you don't want to receive Jundo and Taigu's teachings then I really don't know why you are here. As Jundo has said before, it's a nice to have a chat about tennis once and awhile, but we're playing basketball.

I am sure you will likely find fault with some part of my reasoning Chet, but I hope you meant what you said awhile back about trusting my intentions. When I look at you and Stephanie (or as much as I can glean from the forum and tea party) I see two people very much in pain and suffering who are constantly refusing assistance that is offered to them free of any charge. The visual that comes to mind is Jundo and Taigu listening to everything you have to say and pointing towards the Way. Yes, it is their particular flavor of Zen they are pointing you towards because, after all, it is their zendo! But after awhile, when you choose not to take the path they suggest for you...then really what is there left to say?

Either dive in, really deeply and completely, or accept that this is Jundo and Taigu's ship to run as they see fit. Those of us who dive in haven't swallowed what Jundo tells us whole without chewing...he asks us to chew even when we don't want to! But we have dedicated ourselves to their teachings and perhaps in the future we will have disagreements (it's hard to imagine we won't). But there are a lot of us who like the path Jundo and Taigu have offered and I tire of the constant intellectual games that a few here, not just you and Stephanie, insist on playing. Are you sitting regularly? Are you participating in the weekly and monthly zazenkais? Did you do a service project for Global Service Days? Dokusan with one of the teachers?

I speak only for myself here, but if you aren't going to participate in these activities that cost no money but do require certain responsibilites, then I really don't think you have much cause to be constantly criticizing the management. I'm not particularly a fan of Brad Warner, but the phrase "Sit Down and Shut Up" comes to mind, minus the negative connotations of that phrase. I mean it literally and offer it as advice that I needed to take myself...stop posting so much...go sit...and participate in the activities I mentioned above. Doing these things have come very close to literally saving my life (I only say close because I can never know what would have happened had I not done so). If you aren't going to do that, then, quite frankly, what are you doing here?

And please know this...there is nothing I would rather see than you and Stephanie remain here at Treeleaf. It is something I find myself wishing for, so don't see this as an attempt to get rid of you. Rather the opposite: It is an attempt to persuade you to stay and fully take in what is being taught. I really hope you will.

Gassho,
Dosho

[galen]

Chet,

I'm not going to engage in this discussion you have going with Jundo because, quite frankly, I can't follow it. You have a keen mind and a wealth of knowledge I once aspired to have. But since coming here to Treeleaf I don't wish for that any more and don't wish for many things in fact. I may be wrong, but I don't believe Jundo is discounting anything about your practice or Stephanie's. He is a Soto Zen priest in the lineage of Dogen, Sawaki, and Nishijima and has the right to run his zendo as he sees fit. Yes, I believe we welcome all perspectives here, but after awhile if you don't want to receive Jundo and Taigu's teachings then I really don't know why you are here. As Jundo has said before, it's a nice to have a chat about tennis once and awhile, but we're playing basketball.

I am sure you will likely find fault with some part of my reasoning Chet, but I hope you meant what you said awhile back about trusting my intentions. When I look at you and Stephanie (or as much as I can glean from the forum and tea party) I see two people very much in pain and suffering who are constantly refusing assistance that is offered to them free of any charge. The visual that comes to mind is Jundo and Taigu listening to everything you have to say and pointing towards the Way. Yes, it is their particular flavor of Zen they are pointing you towards because, after all, it is their zendo! But after awhile, when you choose not to take the path they suggest for you...then really what is there left to say?

Either dive in, really deeply and completely, or accept that this is Jundo and Taigu's ship to run as they see fit. Those of us who dive in haven't swallowed what Jundo tells us whole without chewing...he asks us the chew even when we don't want to! But we have dedicated ourselves to their teachings and perhaps in the future we will have disagreements (it's hard to imagine we won't). But there are a lot of us who like the path Jundo and Taigu have offered and I tire of the constant intellectual games that a few here, not just you and Stephanie, insist on playing. Are you sitting regularly? Are you participating in the weekly and monthly zazenkais? Did you do a service project for Global Service Days? Dokusan with one of the teachers?

I speak only for myself here, but if you aren't going to participate in these activities that cost no money but do require certain responsibilites, then I really don't think you have much cause to be constantly criticizing the management. I'm not particularly a fan of Brad Warner, but the phrase "Sit Down and Shut Up" comes to mind, minus the negative connotations of that phrase. I mean it literally and offer it as advice that I needed to take myself...stop posting so much...go sit...and participate in the activities I mentioned above. Doing these things have come very close to literally saving my life (I only say close because I can never know what would have happened had I not done so). If you aren't going to do that, then, quite frankly, what are you doing here?

And please know this...there is nothing I would rather see than you and Stephanie remain here at Treeleaf. It is something I find myself wishing for, so don't see this as an attempt to get rid of you. Rather the opposite: It is an attempt to persuade you to stay and fully take in what is being taught. I really hope you will.

Gassho,
Dosho

Thank you, Dosho,

That serves for me as well. And yes it may take some more prodding, but I think I can get on board this train before it leaves the station, `time will tell.

[disastermouse]

Chet,

I'm not going to engage in this discussion you have going with Jundo because, quite frankly, I can't follow it. You have a keen mind and a wealth of knowledge I once aspired to have. But since coming here to Treeleaf I don't wish for that any more and don't wish for many things in fact. I may be wrong, but I don't believe Jundo is discounting anything about your practice or Stephanie's. He is a Soto Zen priest in the lineage of Dogen, Sawaki, and Nishijima and has the right to run his zendo as he sees fit. Yes, I believe we welcome all perspectives here, but after awhile if you don't want to receive Jundo and Taigu's teachings then I really don't know why you are here. As Jundo has said before, it's a nice to have a chat about tennis once and awhile, but we're playing basketball.

I am sure you will likely find fault with some part of my reasoning Chet, but I hope you meant what you said awhile back about trusting my intentions. When I look at you and Stephanie (or as much as I can glean from the forum and tea party) I see two people very much in pain and suffering who are constantly refusing assistance that is offered to them free of any charge. The visual that comes to mind is Jundo and Taigu listening to everything you have to say and pointing towards the Way. Yes, it is their particular flavor of Zen they are pointing you towards because, after all, it is their zendo! But after awhile, when you choose not to take the path they suggest for you...then really what is there left to say?

I'm not arguing with anything Jundo is teaching here. I'm trying to reconcile two things that I understand as true - both Jundo's and Stephanie's sincere dedications to their practices. This isn't about rejecting anything about Treeleaf - and it didn't even approach that until Jundo brought it up with the old soup metaphor again.

Either dive in, really deeply and completely, or accept that this is Jundo and Taigu's ship to run as they see fit. Those of us who dive in haven't swallowed what Jundo tells us whole without chewing...he asks us to chew even when we don't want to! But we have dedicated ourselves to their teachings and perhaps in the future we will have disagreements (it's hard to imagine we won't). But there are a lot of us who like the path Jundo and Taigu have offered and I tire of the constant intellectual games that a few here, not just you and Stephanie, insist on playing. Are you sitting regularly? Are you participating in the weekly and monthly zazenkais? Did you do a service project for Global Service Days? Dokusan with one of the teachers?

Dosho, once again - I don't believe I've been contradicting Jundo or Taigu's teachings here, merely asking for (and receiving) clarification. I'm re-reading what I posted and nowhere in that do I see a challenge of any sort. As for our respective practices, Dosho - I admit you're far more Zen then me. What you are doing is purely ad hominem attack - you are attacking my motivation, my personal practice, my very validity - but not anything I'm actually posting. I don't see that as a particularly good outcome of your daily practice, your zazenkais, or your service project. Your passive aggression has become more aggressive, but it's being projected on me. Once again, I'm not criticizing Jundo's teachings here, I just think that he is mischaracterizing Stephanie's point of view as being somehow 'un-Zen' when I see nothing of the sort. I know you'd prefer that I just defer to authority here, but I don't think that's very productive in fundamentally changing my point of view in the long run.

I speak only for myself here, but if you aren't going to participate in these activities that cost no money but do require certain responsibilites, then I really don't think you have much cause to be constantly criticizing the management. I'm not particularly a fan of Brad Warner, but the phrase "Sit Down and Shut Up" comes to mind, minus the negative connotations of that phrase. I mean it literally and offer it as advice that I needed to take myself...stop posting so much...go sit...and participate in the activities I mentioned above. Doing these things have come very close to literally saving my life (I only say close because I can never know what would have happened had I not done so). If you aren't going to do that, then, quite frankly, what are you doing here?

Wow, Dosho - you can't ignore the negative connotations of the phrase. Essentially, you are saying, "I don't like what you're saying, so please do shut up." It doesn't matter how nicely you say something like that, it's still a monumentally hostile thing to say. I wish you would at least own your own hostility, and as nice as it is to see it truly in the open, please don't project it onto me. Nothing in my posts in this thread were intended in any way to be hostile to Treeleaf, Jundo, Taigu, or the rest of the Sangha. Again, I wasn't taking pot-shots at the management in this case, I was very specifically speaking to a dismissal of a point of view by Jundo that I don't see as valid merely because I don't think he understands or hears her properly. What I posted was in the service of furthering communication, not in lodging a complaint against Jundo, Taigu, or the sangha at large. I post this because I think it will be helpful for Stephanie, Jundo, myself, and the greater sangha. I'm not doing it to attack anyone, or to annoy the sangha.

And please know this...there is nothing I would rather see than you and Stephanie remain here at Treeleaf. It is something I find myself wishing for, so don't see this as an attempt to get rid of you. Rather the opposite: It is an attempt to persuade you to stay and fully take in what is being taught. I really hope you will.

Gassho,
Dosho

I don't plan on going anywhere, but that doesn't mean I'm going to participate in Jukai either. I resent the implication that my personal decision not to do those things yet bears any light on my ability to speak to a topic with a valid point of view. Again, no inherent hostility has been intended - and in fact, when Jundo clarifies himself regarding relative/absolute, I find that very helpful and a positive outcome of the conversation.

[Stephanie]

Taigu - thank you, and gassho, I very much appreciate your encouragement. I know I drift, and err, and get caught up in the self, and appreciate having this pointed out to me as much as anyone. I am open to guidance and correction, and seek it. I am far from the 'DIY maverick' I have somehow come across as being. I am drawn to more traditional styles, and to centers that have retained more traditional Zen forms. And yet I am open to whatever practice I meet when I go to practice at a center or temple near where I live. I have happened to live and practice in many different places, and have always been open to trying a new style or approach when a new (or old) teacher has given me one. I don't see this as any different than with ancestors who travelled from one temple to another and practiced with different styles and teachers.

I have met many teachers who are more experimental in their approach - some with an overall more traditional style, even, but experimental in the sense that they give me one practice to try at one time and circumstance, and another at another. I mean, we're not talking anything radical here; zazen is still always central and with basically the same method, of paying attention, and coming back when attention has drifted; but sometimes I have been given a question to sit with, sometimes in shikantaza directed to focus more on the body, sometimes on a particular stream of sensation, such as sound. You all may recall a time period I gave the practice at Treeleaf a really good go. I don't dismiss outright what teachers have to say and just willy nilly make up my own practices. I follow what the Buddha taught: not to follow or do something just because a teacher said it, but to put it to the test of my own experience. Some of the suggestions or practices I have been given by teachers have been very powerful, others just didn't work for me.

Chet - I agree with how you describe the arc of the spiritual journey that you were there for so much of. I was certainly dropped on my ass due to my investment in ideals and have been grateful I have not been able to rebuild some of the thought structures I was tied to before. I can see what you refer to as 'grandiosity' and appreciate and agree that you see it as being connected with my sense of aesthetics. I think this is an important point that may go a ways to explaining how I have been misunderstood here. I think what Jundo has not gotten is that I am not struggling against the darker modes of feeling and being I write about, I actually enjoy them. I valorize the experience of 'struggle' and emotions often regarded as 'dark' - even when I am in a more or less cheerful mood. You can get a sense of the narratives I appreciate and to which I am drawn by reading that emusic article on Ian Astbury linked in the first post, or of course by watching a movie like The Road..

I appreciate these kind of experiences because they bring out positive qualities I admire, such as courage, resilience, and inner strength. One of the most important qualities in the bodhisattva canon to me is fearlessness. I respect others who have had to struggle through far worse than I ever have and have as a result developed more courage and inner strength than I have. I think these 'limit experiences' can put us in touch with something that is powerful and potentially transformative. And I think that, at least in modern Buddhist writing in the West, such experiences have been far underrepresented in favor of gentler, 'homier' narratives, whch is why I emphasize these experiences so much.

I have thought about this in context of my role as social worker, and the stressful and chaotic lives I bear witness to - much has been said of how Western Buddhism is class biased toward an Upper Middle Way and I think this can be seen in how much Western Buddhist writing emphasizes the minor complaints of the privileged, rather than the intense "drama" that can infuse the lives of those less privileged, who live in poverty, on the streets, through abuse and mental illness. Not everyone's everyday reality is washing the dishes and watering the flowers.

Jundo - What I have a problem with is where you import this notion of "angst" that is not there. I believe you see me only through the lens of the past, as certainly, I expressed "angst" here before. In this post? I am writing about the joy and beauty I find in seeing the light and fire shining in the darkness. I love the darkness too. It is beautiful. Where you see "sewage," I see beauty.

Rich - thank you for the down-to-earth and honest insight into the basic human factor in what I've experienced regarding Treeleaf. You are very perceptive in your empathy. I think you are dead on, that despite my attempt to rationalize that it's "just something that happened on the Internet," it hit me in a primal place when I was so thoroughly judged and rejected here. The wounded ego. I think it would be best if I could just leave it and move on, but the natural inclination to come back to "make sense of" has been further complicated by the requests I've had to come back or not to leave. And I agree that if there is anywhere I am still entertaining "drama," it is this drama of "oh the injustice" and trying to prove some sort of point here. I feel like participating here becomes a game of ego, I can see that at times, certainly.

Dosho - I find your perspective as skewed and mired in the past as Jundo's. All this "pain and suffering" you are seeing, where is it? I am certainly not happy-go-lucky all the time, but nor would I say I spend the majority of my time in an unpleasant frame of mind. And when I am "down," I have the capacity to appreciate and even enjoy the color of that mood. Again, I think this may boil down to a clash of aesthetics. I love a challenge. I enjoy something that requires a bit of struggle. That does not mean I am always struggling, or that I am unhappy. You look at me and see someone who is struggling and needs help - I look at you and see someone who does not have the capacity to endure, appreciate, or enjoy a lot of the things that have made up the most valuable experiences in my life.

As for my practice - I may still not be sitting daily, but I sit multiple times a week, am heavily involved with my local sangha and do zazenkai and retreats when I can, and as for service - I am involved in my community outside of work and do overtime in my job in crisis intervention in community mental health, which is a job I would not have near the capacity to do successfully if I hadn't forged some intestinal fortitude and equanimity through the experiences and states of mind you pity me for ever having.

[Dosho]

Chet,

That's a very valid deconstruction of what I said, with rationales for every point you have made in this thread.

And that's my point...which I believe you missed entirely. Yes, saying "sit down and shut up" has a negative connotation. I was just trying to get your attention and was referring to sitting instead of intellectualizing.

Just go sit.

Gassho,
Dosho

P.S. My post wasn't passive agressive. Agressive? Ok, if you really think so, but not passive. I told you exactly what I thought and did not mince words. Stay, go, whatever you like...I'll always be here if you want to talk.

[disastermouse]

They are separate, Chet, because the mind makes "them" separate. Most times in life, we are lost in this world of "samsara" and this and that, love and hate. Sometimes in this Practice, we are lost in the "absolute" beyond all this and that, love and hate (some types of Eastern Practice, and even some flavors of Buddhist Practice, do try to completely escape Samsara). Yet, yes too, as you say, they have never been apart from the start, so nothing to separate. All true.

But how we realize the "Absolute" while in this sometimes beautiful sometimes ugly, love and hate world is tricky business. I see people who do so with clarity, insight, balance, Wisdom, Compassion, Freedom ... and those who seem still as too trapped by self, inbalance, ignorance in this world.

Dogen has a most elegant, lively way of expressing this tangled-untangling dance of Buddhas and common men.

Gassho, J

I agree wholeheartedly, Jundo. I think that the theme of 'escape from samsara' is just another egoic war theme. Simply recognizing that relative and absolute are not separate does not help you navigate this world that still seems very much separate, regardless of how many glimpses of wholeness that you see. I still think that realizing (making real, as opposed to simply understanding) that fundamental wholeness is invaluable, and that seeing that apparent separateness is in fact nothing but the expression of wholeness is also an invaluable insight that we must make real in our daily lives.

For me, the longer road has been to try to actually do this instead of attempting to stifle or bury my delusion under the weight of 'good Buddhist behavior'. That is, instead of trying to suppress the symptoms of delusion by altering my behavior to act as if the delusion wasn't there, I'm taking what I believe to be the more genuine route of seeing the harmful nature of my delusions and letting them go as I see them and am able to let them go. Dear Sidd, it is messy! However, it seems more effective than my previous (way before Treeleaf) rather neurotic practice of trying so damned hard to be Buddhist.

Chet

[Dosho]

Stephanie,

My opinion of "pain and suffering" has nothing to do with your moods. It is just my opinion from what I read in your posts, which you are absolutely free to reject. If my opinion has no relevance to your life then so be it.

Good luck on your journey, which I say with complete sincerity. I truly do hope you find what you are looking for.

Gassho,
Dosho

Dosho - I find your perspective as skewed and mired in the past as Jundo's. All this "pain and suffering" you are seeing, where is it? I am certainly not happy-go-lucky all the time, but nor would I say I spend the majority of my time in an unpleasant frame of mind. And when I am "down," I have the capacity to appreciate and even enjoy the color of that mood. Again, I think this may boil down to a clash of aesthetics. I love a challenge. I enjoy something that requires a bit of struggle. That does not mean I am always struggling, or that I am unhappy. You look at me and see someone who is struggling and needs help - I look at you and see someone who does not have the capacity to endure, appreciate, or enjoy a lot of the things that have made up the most valuable experiences in my life.

[disastermouse]

Chet,

That's a very valid deconstruction of what I said, with rationales for every point you have made in this thread.

And that's my point...which I believe you missed entirely. Yes, saying "sit down and shut up" has a negative connotation. I was just trying to get your attention and was referring to sitting instead of intellectualizing.

Just go sit.

Gassho,
Dosho

P.S. My post wasn't passive agressive. Agressive? Ok, if you really think so, but not passive. I told you exactly what I thought and did not mince words. Stay, go, whatever you like...I'll always be here if you want to talk.

Right, Dosho - that's what I'm saying, you are much clearer and much more open. It's an improvement! Still though, my point was that I feel you are projecting an aspect of complaint and rebellion that, although I've expressed that in the past and have since owned the delusion of that, I'm not actually doing that in this thread - nor, I think, have I been doing it in general.

I wish to remain friends, and none of what I'm saying now is meant in any way to diminish my appreciation of your continued friendship or your validity as a person. I do not want to strike out blindly at people anymore.

As disruptive as my past behavior has been, I cannot express enough my gratitude to this Sangha and its teachers for helping me move beyond it and for helping me become genuinely less unconscious and more responsible for my own condition.

Gassho,

Chet

(P.S. - I'm taking your entreaty to sit zazen more frequently to heart.)

[Jundo]

Just Sit, each time ... as the one act completing this moment, nothing lacking ... the only place to be in all time and space in this momentless moment ... dropping likes and dislikes, aversions and attractions ... seeing through thoughts of this and that, me vs. you ... thoughts of yesterday and tomorrow, beginnings and endings, birth and death ... putting aside all the little boxes and categories of judgment by which we mentally divide this life-world-self ... thus encountering the wholeness and intimate inter-being of Buddha ...

... Then, getting up from the cushion, try to find a way to bring alive that wholeness and intimate inter-being Buddha in this messy world and life and self of beauty and ugliness, smiles and tears, joy and suffering, war and peace, birth and death ...

... by living as we can by the Precepts, avoiding harm to self and others (not two, by the way) ... living gently and peacefully in a world of sometime cruelty and war ... working to aid all Sentient Beings ...

This is the simple game of basketball we teach in this basketball school.

Dosho asks a question I would like to ask everyone to reflect on in this Dojo, this Treeleaf Practice Place where we are expected to Practice in this place ...

Are you sitting regularly? Are you participating in the weekly and monthly zazenkais? Did you do a service project for Global Service Days? Dokusan with one of the teachers?

Otherwise, it is like going to the basketball school and sitting on the sidelines.

Chet wrote ...

I still think that realizing (making real, as opposed to simply understanding) that fundamental wholeness is invaluable...

For me, the longer road has been to try to actually do this instead of attempting to stifle or bury my delusion under the weight of 'good Buddhist behavior'. That is, instead of trying to suppress the symptoms of delusion by altering my behavior to act as if the delusion wasn't there, I'm taking what I believe to be the more genuine route of seeing the harmful nature of my delusions and letting them go as I see them and am able to let them go.

Whatever the means, we have to let the anger, greed/need and ignorance (division and self-ness) go in order to taste the fruits of this practice. One simply cannot taste the fruits if living as a mean, spouse-beating, pillaging and plundering bigot, for example, and no less for the small examples of greed, anger and ignorance we bring into this life. The one place I might disagree, Chet, is that sometimes we just "see them and let go" ... but sometimes we do have to actively change our behavior, make a vow to stop and follow through, go "cold turkey" in quitting the pillaging and plundering. You do have to "live like a Buddhist", asking "What Would Buddha Do" ... There is a time for each.

Gassho, J

[Jundo]

I just placed a little Dharma-wager about the below statement on a split thread ...

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10187-SPLIT-TOPIC-Or-I-ll-Eat-My-Zafu%21

PS - Chet, almost every Zen Master of old, from Bodhidharma to Huineng to Dogen to Honzhi to Hakuin to everyone in between spoke of "True Self/small self, True Face, Dharmakhaya, Relative/Absolute, Mu, Emptiness, Shobogenzo, Big 'B' Buddha, Mirror Mind, Capital "M" Mind etc. etc." ... although each as "fingers pointing to the moon" (the "moon", by the way, yet another metaphorical finger pointing at the moon of Enlightenment"). This has to be unpierced, realized (made real in living) through sitting and all Practice.

However, though "fingers pointing at the moon", that does not take away that the central point of their teachings of Zen Practice was not ... to a man ... anything but the need to realize (grock and bring to life) and and break free of the self/other, the Relative/Absolute. Sorry, find me someone through the centuries who taught something else in the classic literature. I will eat my Zafu on toast. Even Dogen was about that through his jazzed up, vibrant vision of how the relative and absolute interpenetrate and totally exert as each other. No exceptions, and the only thing the Soto and Rinzai folks (and other Mahayana Buddhists) really disagree on is the specific methods to do so.

[Jinyo]

Once I was expelled from a group (nothing to do with zen or religion) and it took me 3 years to totally accept it. Feelings would arise out of nowhere like how could they treat me so harshly and unfairly, some anger, a feeling that I was supposed to do something to make a perceived wrong into something right. I knew some of the things I did weren't right but I had apologized and come on I would never make that mistake again. Being excluded, ostracized affects your being at a very primal level. I don't really have a secret on how to deal with this but it seems that time is on my side and trusting yourself is the willingness to deal with it.
On a very deep level this is what practice is all about. At some point all the drama dissolves away and we realize what great actors we are.

I just wanted to come back to this because, as Stephanie has said, Richard's words show empathy and possibly come closest to understanding why there is so much upset in this thread.

Stephanie, I wasn't around when you first joined Tree Leaf but the issues at stake seem to be pretty clear and seem to point to a need for reparation.
Somehow this post moved from 'Beautiful and powerful words' - (Jundo's affirmation) to your expressing a sense of there being 'favourite pupils' and visualizing/experiencing some sanga members as a 'horde of torch- wielding villagers'.

The trigger for the turn around seems to revolve around a lack of resonance concerning the terms 'big self' 'little self' and there is now a discussion taking place concerning this.

My brain is too tired to follow this separate discussion because there's a lot going on for me just now - but I did feel the need to add to this post, because at heart I feel the fundamental issue is somehow akin to family dynamics - and family dynamics matter more than philosophical discussion.

Reading back through this thread there is a lot of personal stuff - and I'm not sure it can be contained at the level it needs to be contained within a written forum. The way I'm reading it the discord - and what needs to be healed - is wider than the exchange of conflicting ideas. I could of course be wrong.

Anyway - just a few thoughts.

Gassho

Willow

[Jundo]

... and family dynamics matter more than philosophical discussion.

Hi Willow,

I just want to drop in that these issues may seem like a "philosophical discussion", but truly they go to the heart of Zen and all Mahayana Buddhism. All the Koans, the Zazen, the Mahayana Sutras, the writings by the great Teachers ... truly all arise from and center on this. Sometimes this fact may be lost on folks who believe that "Zen" is beyond and rejects all "ideas, views and doctrines" ... and thus has not ideas, views and doctrines. But such is not the case.

Rather, when folks of old said that "Zen" is beyond all "ideas, views and doctrines" they meant (itself a kind of doctrine) that the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha (which we are discussing) is beyond all divisions, all "ideas, views and doctrines". So, the best way to approach and realize the Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha is thus to sit in Zazen ( Shikantaza, work with Koans and the like) dropping all ideas, views and doctrines. Thereby our little self, with all its little ideas and views ... comes to embody that which is beyond (yet spawns) all divisions, ideas and views.

Why is that important? Why did perhaps every single Zen teacher of old that I know spend so much time and effort to Teach just this? Is it just philosophy and a waste of time compared to your now dealing with your old mother, who is very sick, or other matters in life?

I would answer by saying that this Teaching is,　in fact, one of the greatest gifts to someone who is dealing with sickness, old age, life and death and all human problems. It is not merely a "philosophical debate" because, when one has truly unpierced this Absolute/True Self/Big "B" Buddha that all the old teachers spoke about, one learns that sickness, old age, life and death, the broken heart and struggle you are dealing with ... is not just that. Further, it is not merely to be understood on an intellectual level, but rather right in our bones through this Zen Practice.

I hope that is clear. Freedom, Wisdom, Compassion arise here ... when we can live this "No Doctrine Doctrine".

Gassho, J