Buddha and Christ

[Jundo]

For Christ-Buddha's Sake! Everybody cool it!

This is like Jesus and Buddha having a fistfight!

[Jundo]

By the way (yes, my perogative to jump in ), in Suzuki's "Zen Mind Beginner's Mind" on Posture, I don't see anything he is teaching that is but "not-2" ...

Now I would like to talk about our zazen posture. When you sit in the full lotus position, your left foot is on your right thigh, and your right foot is on your left thigh. When we cross our legs like this, even though we have a right leg and a left leg, they have become one. The position expresses the oneness of duality: not two, and not one. This is the most important teaching: not two, and not one. Our body and mind are not two and not one. If you think your body and mind are two, that is wrong; if you think that they are one, that is also wrong. Our body and mind are both two and one. We usually think that if something is not one, it is more than one; if it is not singular, it is plural. But in actual experience, our life is not only plural, but also singular. Each one of us is both dependent and independent. After some years we will die. If we just think that it is the end of our life, this will be the wrong understanding. But, on the other hand, if we think that we do not die, this is also wrong. We die, and we do not die. This is the right understanding. Some people may say that our mind or soul exists forever, and it is only our physical body which dies. But this is not exactly right, because both mind and body have their end. But at the same time it is also true that they exist eternally. And even though we say mind and body, they are actually two sides of one coin. This is the right understanding. So when we take this posture it symbolizes this truth.


By the way ... Jesus and Buddha are "not two".

Gassho, J

[galen]

I challenge you to reply to criticism without using the word or concept of projection. Not all criticism can be so deflected. You sound like a Psych 101 student who's found a term to misuse in defense of his need to always be right. Not all criticism is projection just as not all defenses are denial. I wanted to come at you harder after your condescending response to my earlier post, but I figured I'd wait to see whether my instincts were correct.

No one wants to argue, we simply ask that you proceed with some respect towards the people with whom you share this space.

You remind me of someone for whom I have a soft spot....I can't...*ahem*...quite put my finger on who it is though....

Chet

Everything in phenomena is projection.

[galen]

For Christ-Buddha's Sake! Everybody cool it!

This is like Jesus and Buddha having a fistfight!

Thanks!

[Taigu]

galen, this is not a video game or a projection story.
It is your life -death. Beyond, much beyond what you make of it.

take care


gassho

Taigu

[galen]

galen, this is not a video game or a projection story.
It is your life -death. Beyond, much beyond what you make of it.

take care


gassho

Taigu

Thank you for your perception here, Taigu. I will wash it through my mind.

[Taigu]

By the way Willow, galen ...If I may, these clumsy words opening the ten oxherding pictures talks... Or what to do with a question...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0FKQR21jiw&feature=player_embedded

take care and be well

gassho


Taigu

[Rich]

Love that bell, Taigu. Will keep my ears open for one of them.

[galen]

Thank you, Taigu,

I have read the ox herding steps, and there were even 10. I say that because, I guess one or two steps were added to the original, the last being, getting off the ox and going among the market (people) and totally being one-with, with not even a hair of separation. I look forward to hearing your discussion. I feel I have at least spotted the tracks .

[Omoi Otoshi]

Pontus.......... if or when you do decide to re-read ZMBM, let me know your take on page 7 on Posture, whether there is some disagreement with Jundos take on not-2. Suzuki seems to see it from a different perspective. Jundo, don't way-in till Pontus posts his own take.

Hi Galen,

Suzuki's, Jundo's and Taigu's pointing is very similar and pointing to the same moon. If you ask me, Jundo's take might even be closer to Suzuki than even Nishijima or Sawaki in this regard (but I could be wrong of course). I see no real difference in perspective. Do you think of something in particular?

Posture is a personal thing. I prefer the lotus position for different reasons, but there are several classic positions to choose from, so if you can't sit lotus, no big deal. When I started sitting, knowing that I was sitting in the exact same position as Gautama and all the ancestors gave me the reassurance I needed, a kinship or connection, helped me find the Buddha mind. It's also a very practical position in that it's very stable. I find it easier to trust my body and let go in this position than in any other. And for me, it's neither too comfortable, nor too painful.

Then there is the symbolism, or the tantric dimension of posture, that is different to every practitioner I suppose. I like Suzuki's take regarding the legs. You can also find meaning in the upright spine, the position of the arms, the shape of the mudra, the whole body as one.

I'm not sure any of this is helpful at all...

Gassho,
Pontus

[Omoi Otoshi]

And Taigu's take on the ox herding pictures is fantastic, please listen to them all!

/Pontus

[galen]

Hi Galen,

Suzuki's, Jundo's and Taigu's pointing is very similar and pointing to the same moon. If you ask me, Jundo's take might even be closer to Suzuki than even Nishijima or Sawaki in this regard (but I could be wrong of course). I see no real difference in perspective. Do you think of something in particular?

Posture is a personal thing. I prefer the lotus position for different reasons, but there are several classic positions to choose from, so if you can't sit lotus, no big deal. When I started sitting, knowing that I was sitting in the exact same position as Gautama and all the ancestors gave me the reassurance I needed, a kinship or connection, helped me find the Buddha mind. It's also a very practical position in that it's very stable. I find it easier to trust my body and let go in this position than in any other. And for me, it's neither too comfortable, nor too painful.

Then there is the symbolism, or the tantric dimension of posture, that is different to every practitioner I suppose. I like Suzuki's take regarding the legs. You can also find meaning in the upright spine, the position of the arms, the shape of the mudra, the whole body as one.

I'm not sure any of this is helpful at all...

Gassho,
Pontus

Thank you, Pontus.

[Mp]

By the way Willow, galen ...If I may, these clumsy words opening the ten oxherding pictures talks... Or what to do with a question...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0FKQR21jiw&feature=player_embedded

take care and be well

gassho


Taigu

Thank you for this Taigu, I really enjoyed your example with the bell ... when the bell is full, dead sound ... but when it is empty, the sound resonates. Beautiful!

Gassho
Michael

[galen]

galen, this is not a video game or a projection story.
It is your life -death. Beyond, much beyond what you make of it.

take care


gassho

Taigu

Taigu,

Your perspective of `my perspective on projection, is just that. We both have a right to that. I did not mean it like you say here as seeing life as some movie, that is your take, and that is quite ok, I get that. I had posted in the past something like this... when we are in a relationship with other, verbal or otherwise, we are getting back, good or bad as such, what we project on them. If they seem to have a negative attitude, it can contain not only a lesson for our self to own about our self, but we are projecting our attitude on them and they back to us. If we approach with hostility, we are going to probably meet frowned eyes and some distress. If we meet another with a good attitude and openly, we can quite possibly get a warm feeling and understanding from them, even if they are having a bad day, we may change their perspective in a `moments time’ if our projection has a more loving take. Others feedback is more about us then about them. You did not contest that at the time, Taigu... friend, and expressed something close to that using the word projection in a later post yourself. But this is not an argument here, its just me stating my feelings and maybe getting it off my chest. I did chuckle when you bursted forth the ol’ “eloquent bla bla bla” and thought to myself, now that is a hell of a projection right there. While I am getting to know you as a person first, a teacher second, and have joy in that, sometimes you are also peddling a lot of Zen “eloquent bla bla bla”... ie, so nice projection there. When we find ourselves whining and feeling victimized by other, we need to grab a mirror and drop the drama.

I have spent the last 25 years seeking a way to heal my psyche and figure myself out after a very traumatic divorce, and spent a lot of time in depth psychology readings, along with psychotherapists teachings (Carl Jung), and what could be called a metaphysical perspective. Oh I know all the talking heads here are already up in arms... that is not the Zen, the Soto Dogen way, fine. The reason being I am going on here, is because a few things I have said or stated have been thrown back to me as ‘thats just metaphysics’, please! Or here in this thread concerning the word projection, someone stated something like thats just amateur psychology 101, again fine, that is that persons right, no problem. So I say this from My perspective, and that is all it Is, all humans are amateur psychologists, from your 6 year old working you for a piece of candy, or grandma or your barber. It’s the natural make up of our humaness. From a person who sees things from what could be called a metaphysical stance, a lot of what Dogen says and theorizes about, could be seen in that perspective (as metaphysical {even though he has insinuated otherwise}). Also, it could be said, that Dogen is a tremendous psychologist. In his own Way, he is selling his way to better deal with our often distressed human mind, in the hopes that his teachings (perspective) is healing or putting us in some more blissful state or feeling, if you will.

In Suzuki’s chap of `Study Yourself', in ZMBM, WHAT THE HELL IS THAT if its not psychology. His opening sentence goes like this... “The purpose of studying Buddhism is not the study of Buddhism, it’s the study of ourselves.”, and it seemingly leaves the door open to psychology or what could be called a metaphysical perspective. In other chapters he even infers using the christian god to make some of his points, also.

As I get more Dogenized, some of my perspective will change, but these perspectives I have discussed here are a part of who I am, for better or worse, esp since there is no such thing as good or bad.

Please excuse my normal poor grammar, phasing and spelling, thats also who I am .

[galen]

By the way Willow, galen ...If I may, these clumsy words opening the ten oxherding pictures talks... Or what to do with a question...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0FKQR21jiw&feature=player_embedded

take care and be well

gassho


Taigu

Thank you Taigu, I thought this was excellent. Or should I perhaps say, it felt good, the embodiment of, this teaching. Your opening was fine, no critique needed, as such .