My lesson in attachment

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 41229

    #16
    Originally posted by willow
    Alan - I've been pondering on this and the following posts.

    I feel there's an implicit tendency in Zen (buddhism in general?) to load 'attachment' with a lot of negativity and difficulty. When I read your post I though it wasn't just a vignette of your story - but of your friends aswell. It is also a story about connectivity and the way in which we cherish relationships/memories. Suffering through attachment/loss feels inevitable - but is that always such a bad thing?

    I couldn't get the later video (of the woman who had lost everything) to play - but surely she is in a state of shock and I found myself questioning why her response would necessarily be different if she were a buddhist? I would think the most that could happen through being a buddhist is that the working through/ the turn around - might take less time -be easier to access?

    Perhaps there is something missing from how I view this - but I see equanimity as a process and I have difficulty understanding how it's possible to be in two states of mind at the same time in intense situations - unless as Jundo says one is some way along the path?
    Hi WIllow,

    I could have said it better than she is "not a Buddhist/Zen Practitioner" (I changed it to "That is because those poor, crying, heartbroken women are not experiencing events with a Buddha's Eyes."). However, I believe that a Zen student would come to experience loss and tragedy in a very new way. In fact, I believe this to be the central point of Buddhism ... since the original days when the Buddha taught how not to experience sickness, old age, death, loss of treasure or those we love, not in the same deluded way as most folks.

    Now, please do not misunderstand ... my heart goes out to those women, to anyone in crisis, to anyone suffering from the grief of having lost things or people they love.

    Also, please do not misunderstand ... because I would (and have been even recently) myself extremely heart broken, fearful, distraught, grieving and all the rest when I have experienced and witnessed loss (such as last year during and witnessing the tsunami, earthquake, nuclear disaster, almost losing our daughter to a sickness).

    As well, I agree with you that cherishing friends and relationships is lovely and healthy, and we should do so. Nothing wrong with valuing and keeping keepsakes that remind us of those people and connections. The walls of our home are covered with old family pictures of those we loved, many now lost.

    HOWEVER, the heart of Buddhist Practice is non-attachment, letting go, non-clinging, going with the flow. We do experience a realm in which there is no heart to break, nothing to fear, no possible loss or anywhere to go. A Wholeness so Whole, there is no one to be lost, no one to lose them. Buddhism 1o1.

    The marvelous thing is that, in the Mahayana Way**, one can experience all of the above At Once As One ... a broken heart and "The Heart of the Perfection of Wisdom" at once. Yes, one can shed tears and experience a Buddha's peaceful smile at once. One can cherish the people and stuff we have, yet be willing to let it go when it goes ... all at Once. (Yes, the former "attachment" without the latter "non-attachment, willingness to let go" is a source of Dukkha, Suffering.).

    I did not mean to express a coldness or lack of empathy and sympathy for those poor women on the tape. Far from it! I would cry with them, offer a shoulder to cry on too. It is just that ... more than restoring their homes and furniture, their money or family's health and lives (though I wish them that too), we can teach this great, clear Way of Liberation.

    Gassho, J

    ** (Perhaps the so-called "Hinayana" schools were rather more into attaining the peace and equanimity of Buddha totally free of and removed from the tears and like emotions, property and emotional human relationships of ordinary life ... but the Mahayana and Zen Schools found how to have one's Dharma Cake and Eat it Too in life).
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-01-2012, 02:00 PM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

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    • Jinyo
      Member
      • Jan 2012
      • 1957

      #17
      Hi Jundo - I do not doubt your empathy - I have a sense of you as a human being with a big heart.

      The questioning is really aimed at myself - I doubt my own ability to hold peace and anguish all at once.

      I agree with your point Chet - it's difficult to maintain a balance between connectivity and investment in identity.


      Gassho

      Willow

      Comment

      • Jundo
        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
        • Apr 2006
        • 41229

        #18
        Originally posted by willow
        Hi Jundo - I do not doubt your empathy - I have a sense of you as a human being with a big heart.

        The questioning is really aimed at myself - I doubt my own ability to hold peace and anguish all at once.
        But don't we humans do such all the time? Feel something as "bitter sweet", have "mixed feelings", see "both sides of a situation"? For example, when our children grow and leave the nest, aren't we happy-sad all at once? When a loved one dies after a painful illness in a broken body, perhaps, do we not feel sorrow and peace at once? Don't we feel a satisfaction at finishing the housework for the day, yet know the job is never done? So, the human mind is quite capable of experiencing things from many sides at once.

        Zen Practice may be just a rather refined, wide and special way of seeing things from many sides, and No Side At All ... a Sweetness that holds both the bitter and the sweet of life ... a Peace that embraces all the broken pieces ... work and living that is constantly Complete yet never finished ... a growing and going, simultaneously living with no place in need of going ...

        Don't sell one's capacities short!

        Gassho, J
        Last edited by Jundo; 07-02-2012, 12:50 AM.
        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

        Comment

        • Mp

          #19
          Originally posted by Jundo
          For example, when our children grow and leave the nest, aren't we happy-sad all at once? When a loved one dies after a painful illness in a broken body, perhaps, do we not feel sorrow and peace at once? Don't we feel a satisfaction at finishing the housework for the day, yet know the job is never done? So, the human mind is quite capable of experiencing things from many sides at once.
          So true Jundo ... it is interesting how we have such great capacity, yet sometimes fall short of the signs in front of us.

          Gassho,
          Michael

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          • Shokai
            Dharma Transmitted Priest
            • Mar 2009
            • 6532

            #20
            I remember how i used to retreat when my father would tell his stories over and over. Always told myself i didn't want to get like that. Suddenly, one day I realized i was doing IT! Utilizing Mindfulness, I was able to stop short and apologize if they had heard it before. Since then, gradually, I have stopped telling the stories (at least verbatim ) And, gradually, i find i'm living more and more in the moment. Do you think zazen had anything to do with that?
            合掌,生開
            gassho, Shokai

            仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

            "Open to life in a benevolent way"

            https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

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            • AlanLa
              Member
              • Mar 2008
              • 1405

              #21
              Wow, lots added here. Let me start with the issue of seeing both sides at once. I am very much attached to all my possessions, and they are all about relationships. Many of my things remind me of people, many others of places, and everything I have is in relationship to me. I would most definitely grieve terribly were I to lose all my possessions in a fire or some other tragedy, and that grief would be an expression of attachment. But I also see through that attachment, how empty it is, where the source of it is. So I think I would cope rather well overall with such loss because of my practice, which is not not say I would not have some bad moments along the way.

              Is attachment inherently negative? Nothing is inherently anything; it's all empty. But some attachments are healthier than others. I think my little experience that started this thread helped me make my attachments to my possessions healthier. We need at least some attachments; we can't live without some of the basic ones like love and shelter, etc. You know, the big stuff. Such attachments in and of themselves are not negative, but they can become negative if we aren't careful.

              One of our biggest and strongest attachments is to our identity, but it's made up of stories just like my house is. But it's a lot easier to let go of possessions than it is mind constructions (stories) about who we are. It all traces back to "me." Do my possessions define me? In the relative sense, yes, all those stories make up who I am. But my possessions do not define me at all in the absolute sense because there is no "me" to be defined. My starting post was an attempt at a bridge between these two views.
              Last edited by AlanLa; 07-02-2012, 02:49 PM.
              AL (Jigen) in:
              Faith/Trust
              Courage/Love
              Awareness/Action!

              I sat today

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              • Shokai
                Dharma Transmitted Priest
                • Mar 2009
                • 6532

                #22
                _/\_ Thanks Al
                合掌,生開
                gassho, Shokai

                仁道 生開 / Jindo Shokai

                "Open to life in a benevolent way"

                https://sarushinzendo.wordpress.com/

                Comment

                • Jinyo
                  Member
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 1957

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Jundo
                  But don't we humans do such all the time? Feel something as "bitter sweet", have "mixed feelings", see "both sides of a situation"? For example, when our children grow and leave the nest, aren't we happy-sad all at once? When a loved one dies after a painful illness in a broken body, perhaps, do we not feel sorrow and peace at once? Don't we feel a satisfaction at finishing the housework for the day, yet know the job is never done? So, the human mind is quite capable of experiencing things from many sides at once.

                  Zen Practice may be just a rather refined, wide and special way of seeing things from many sides, and No Side At All ... a Sweetness that holds both the bitter and the sweet of life ... a Peace that embraces all the broken pieces ... work and living that is constantly Complete yet never finished ... a growing and going, simultaneously living with no place in need of going ...

                  Don't sell one's capacities short!

                  Gassho, J
                  Jundo - these are good examples - and of course there are many situations where life is bitter sweet, we could not survive as human beings without the mental (and spiritual) capacity to experience the ups and downs of life in such a way.

                  But I'm sure there are situations where people are broken - and I don't see myself as beyond this.

                  I'm not at the stage where I can fully accept that there is a 'peace that embraces all the broken pieces' - in every moment and every situation.

                  This calls for great faith (and diligent practice) - I'm simply not there yet. But that's not so say I disbelieve others who experience such peace - or that I do not - mosy fleetingly - experience this myself.

                  I would not give the time to Zen practice if I did not believe that it has it's own special way.

                  I'm kinda hoping that doubt might lead to faith and meanwhile my mind's a bit

                  Gassho

                  Willow

                  Comment

                  • Hans
                    Member
                    • Mar 2007
                    • 1853

                    #24
                    Hello,

                    what to say....just another one of my "vanilla" flavoured thank yous. The sharing of all these experiences is so precious and generous of you all.

                    May we all find clarity and peace.

                    Gassho,

                    Hans Chudo Mongen

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 41229

                      #25
                      Originally posted by willow

                      I'm not at the stage where I can fully accept that there is a 'peace that embraces all the broken pieces' - in every moment and every situation.

                      This calls for great faith (and diligent practice) - I'm simply not there yet. But that's not so say I disbelieve others who experience such peace - or that I do not - mosy fleetingly - experience this myself.
                      Hi Willow,

                      Well, that's why they call it Practice, Enlightenment, and why we sit Shikantaza ... to Realize this (have it get in our bones) and Realize this (bring it to life in life).

                      But it is really not rocket science, does not even require much faith. It is a little tricky to master, but not so hard to explain really.

                      The little self is always thinking "good and bad for me", gain and loss for me, what "I" want, how "I" want things to be, "My house", where "I" need to get, what "I" can't accept about "you and the other things of the world". Such is to be human.

                      However, Buddhists also call it "delusion", and in Shikantaza we taste a realm that gets the "I, me, mine" out of the equation to Great and lesser degrees, tasting a realm of Wholeness so Whole that it washes away into Wholeness all that good/bad/gain/loss/need/can't accept etc etc of the "me/myself/I". Buddhism 101 in pretty much all schools and flavors of Buddhism in general, Zen Buddhism in particular, that I know. We get beyond or see through that "I, me, mine" and all its needs and demands on life and the things it thinks of as "not me".

                      In the Mahayana flavors of Buddhism, we tend to encounter the "not I" and the "I" as not mutually exclusive ... e.g., "needs" and "no needs" at once, "radical, total acceptance" and "no acceptance" at once, etc. etc., the former shining a light which lightens and enlightens the latter (Short side note ... not necessarily in "every moment and every situation" as you call it, although many of the old Zen writings give the impression that once someone is "Enlightened" they are done. In fact, Wisdom can come and go ... and we do need to get better at it like riding a wild bull ... so another reason we call this "Practice").

                      It is so logical, in fact, that I dare say it is not really a matter of faith.

                      Keep trying. Some "me/mine/I" do not want to go quietly, and clutch on for dear life. However, if you ever truly want to be Free, and at Peace among all life's seemingly broken pieces, there is no better way to do so.

                      Gassho, J
                      Last edited by Jundo; 07-05-2012, 01:36 AM.
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Jundo
                        Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                        • Apr 2006
                        • 41229

                        #26
                        I truly mean that most of the Mahayana Buddhist, and especially old Chan/Zen teachings, really boil down to just what I wrote above. They had a fancy way of saying things, and the old Teachers had many special terms and phrases to convey this, but it really comes down to that. Here is an example, chosen pretty much at random by me, an 8th Century Chan Text called (quite a mouthful) the "Treatise on the True Sudden Enlightenment School, Opening up Mind and revealing Reality-Nature." (combining J.D. Cleary and John McRae translations]. It is a dialogue between a Master and his student, a lay person.

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                        Question [by student]: The Buddha Dharma is abstruse and mysterious, unfathomable to ordinary people. Its literature is vast, its meanings hard to understand. May we inquire about the Chan Master's essential teachings? Let us have some provisional words, some expedient means, a direct approach through direct words without secrets, that does not abandon us worldly types. (JUNDO: HEY, THESE BUDDHIST TEACHINGS ARE REALLY COMPLICATED, SO CAN YOU JUST BOIL IT DOWN IN A NUTSHELL AS BEST YOU CAN IN WORDS AND SAY IT STRAIGHT FOR US ORDINARY FOLKS)

                        [The Master] answered: Excellent! Excellent! Observing your question, I see that your basis as a bodhisattva is about to become pure and ripe. I am forty-five; it has been more than twenty years since I entered the Path, and there has never been anyone who has asked about this. What concerns do you have? What doubts are you trying to resolve? Speak directly; there's no time to bother with elaborate speech. [JUNDO: OH, I SEE YOU HAVE A GOOD KNACK FOR THIS! IN MY 20 YEAR CAREER NOBODY HAS JUST ASKED ME TO LAY IT OUT STRAIGHT LIKE THAT. GO AHEAD, ASK ME, AND DON'T WORRY ABOUT WHAT FANCY WORDS YOU USE OR HOW YOU SAY IT) ...

                        Questioner: If we wish to enter the Path, what Dharma should we practice, what Dharma should we study, what Dharma should we seek, what Dharma do we experience, what Dharma do we attain, in order to proceed toward enlightenment? [JUNDO: WHAT SHOULD WE PRACTICE, STUDY, SEEK, EXPERIENCE, ATTAIN TO GET ENLIGHTENED?]

                        Answer: No Dharma is studied, and there is no seeking. No Dharma is experienced, and there is no attaining. No Dharma is awakened to, and there is no Path that can be cultivated. This is enlightenment. [JUNDO: NOTHING TO PRACTICE OR STUDY OR "GET", SEEK, EXPERIENCE, ATTAIN OR AWAKEN TO, CULTIVATE ... AND AWAKENING TO THAT IS FINALLY GETTING, ATTAINING AND CULTIVATING AWAKENING. THIS IS HOW WE ATTAIN NON-ATTAINING, AWAKEN TO NON-AWAKENING. RADICALLY STOP TRYING TO "GET" SOMETHING, AND YOU WILL FINALLY GET IT!] ...

                        Question: ... What is our true nature?

                        Answer: [The non-activated mind that] does not give rise to false states of mind: it is forever formless [without characteristics] and pure.[JUNDO: THE MIND THAT DOES NOT GET CAUGHT IN THINKING THOUGHTS WHICH ARE DIVIDiNG INTO PIECES, JUDGING, LABELING THIS, THAT FROM THE OTHER THING).

                        Question: What is self-identity?... How is it born? [JUNDO: WHERE DOES THE "ME/MYSELF/I" AND THE "NOT ME" COME FROM?)

                        Answer: It is born from false mind. [JUNDO: IT IS THE DECEPTIVE MIND THAT CUTS UP, DIVIDES, JUDGES, RUNS TOWARD OR RESISTS THE WORLD, CUTTING IT UP INTO LITTLE PIECES]

                        Question: How can one detach from self-identity?

                        Answer: When false states of mind do not arise, this is detachment. [JUNDO: JUST STOP ALL THAT DIVIDING, JUDGING, RUNNING TOWARD AND RESISTING ETC.]

                        Question: What is Enlightenment? What is the Principle [JUNDO: "PRINCIPLE" IS A CHINESE BUDDHIST CODE WORD FOR THE WAY A BUDDHA ENCOUNTERS STUFF, BEFORE DIVIDING, JUDGING, LABELING, RUNNING TOWARD OR RESISTING ETC.] ? What is the mind?

                        Answer: ... Since mind is capable of equanimity [and to experience the world as universally same], it is called Principle. Since Principle is aware and can illuminate clearly, it is called mind [JUNDO: THE MIND CAN TAP INTO THIS WHOLE, UNBROKEN PRINCIPLE, AND IS JUST PRINCIPLE]. Since mind and Principle are equal, it is called buddha. When mind finds this Principle, you do not see birth and death: ordinary and sage are no different, objects and wisdom are not two, principle and phenomena are both fused, defiled and pure are one suchness [JUNDO: THE WHOLE, UNBROKEN PRINCIPLE and ALL THE BROKEN, MESSY PIECES OF THE WORLD ... INCLUDING "YOUR HOUSE" BURNING DOWN ... ARE NOT SEPARATE. ARE NOT BROKEN]. With true awareness according to Principle, nothing is not the Path. Transcending both self and other [JUNDO: GETTING PAST THAT "ME/MYSELF/I" and the "NOT ME"), you practice all practices at once. There is no before and after and no in between [JUNDO: EVERYTHING IS SEEN AS THE WHOLE ENCHILADA]. Bondage and emancipation occur spontaneously [JUNDO: LIBERATION IS FOUND RIGHT IN AND AS THIS WORLD OF BONDAGE] Your bonds are untied and you are free: it is called the Path, Enlightenment.

                        Yes, those old Zen Masters had some fancy ways to say it (even in something like the above, which is supposed to be "saying it simple and straight"}, but it all comes down to about the same.

                        Gassho, Jundo
                        Last edited by Jundo; 07-03-2012, 06:44 AM.
                        ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                        Comment

                        • Jinyo
                          Member
                          • Jan 2012
                          • 1957

                          #27
                          Hi Jundo - I appreciate the teaching you are giving here.

                          It's clear to me what the teaching points at - and I agree - as you say - it isn't rocket science.

                          I'm having difficulty because I'm struggling (pretty sick just now) and feeling
                          guilty and upset that I'm not coping as well as normal. (A judgement I know - and an attachment to an idea of how I should be)

                          I had come to an acceptance of my situation through what you might call Zen principles
                          (but without the 'language' of Zen) many years ago - but as you say it is a constant process - not acceptance one day and then enlightened/free for ever more).

                          Perhaps, here and now, I should have just asked for Metta instead of getting involved in a discussion - but I find it difficult to ask.

                          That 'little self' is for ever judging 'self' - I find it natural to give to others - but I am not often compassionate toward the broken pieces of my own life.

                          Gassho

                          Willow

                          Comment

                          • disastermouse

                            #28
                            It's not hard to understand, but getting prior to the start of the mental shit-storm requires an immense openness to freedom. It really is the first step off the 100-foot pole.

                            IMHO, of course.

                            Chet

                            Comment

                            • Ekai
                              Member
                              • Feb 2011
                              • 672

                              #29
                              Originally posted by willow
                              Perhaps, here and now, I should have just asked for Metta instead of getting involved in a discussion - but I find it difficult to ask.
                              Here's Metta to you Willow. I hope you will feel better soon.



                              This thread is very helpful. Thanks to all.

                              Gassho,
                              Ekai

                              Comment

                              • ZenHarmony
                                Member
                                • Feb 2012
                                • 315

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Jundo
                                Question: How can one detach from self-identity?

                                Answer: When false states of mind do not arise, this is detachment. [JUNDO: JUST STOP ALL THAT DIVIDING, JUDGING, RUNNING TOWARD AND RESISTING ETC.]
                                But *how* do you detach from self-identity? How do you just let thoughts go so that you can get to that point? I really need some solid tips on how to do that, more than "just practice." I know I'm not supposed to hang any expectations on the practice, but I'm really feeling like I'm just putting in time when I'm sitting and that I'm never going to progress past this point. Whenever I have a thought come in my head, such as, "Am I doing this right? Is my posture correct? What would others think of how I'm sitting?" ect., I consciously bring my attention back to my breath, since I can tell when I have these thoughts, my breathing becomes shallow and uneven.

                                Do I need to be practicing longer? Is it like exercise where you just don't get up to speed and break a sweat until the 20 minute mark, and I'm missing out on the "meat" of the practice? What am I doing wrong?

                                Gassho,

                                Lisa

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