Violence and self-defense

[Heisoku]

Just for the record I have never been 'attacked or threatened' since practising martial arts.
Just for the record I don't go out much at night either as I did when I was younger so the chances of that happening have diminished! Old and boring works!

[Nengyo]

Old and boring works!

This is my primary self defense technique now days. Most of my jujitsu moves only get used when playing with my son!

[Emmet]

I wish I could find the quote, but I recall reading where Miyamoto Musashi considered his greatest victories to be the ones where he did not have to draw his sword. As I recall, he considered being forced into combat to be a personal failure to manage the situation skillfully enough for both parties to walk away. On the other hand, when circumstances left him no other option, he acted immediately without hesitation, compunction, or malice.

One thing which occurs to me is choice and responsibility. I'm a big guy with some formal training in modern infantry weapons and tactics; in a violent confrontation, perhaps it might be best for me to choose non-violence. My wife is 5'2" and 100 lbs with no such background; I have no right to make such a decision on her behalf.

Another thing about choice and responsibility; when I was a paramedic and technical rescue specialist, the First Rule of Search & Rescue was that however dire the emergency you've created for yourself, at the end of the day, everyone from my engine company is going home to their wives and families tonight; no exceptions. I've promised her to come home tonight; and she rightfully expects me to fulfill that vow. I should break that sacred trust for...what?

What to do? Since time immemorial people have wondered when the time comes whether they will run towards or away from the sound of battle. I've never known anyone to reach a legitimately definitive conclusion until they've actually been placed in that situation. All the rest appears to me to be largely idle speculation.

[Shujin]

Thank you for your post, Piobair. I found it to be measured and well reasoned.

Gassho,
Shujin

[ZenHarmony]

...What to do? Since time immemorial people have wondered when the time comes whether they will run towards or away from the sound of battle. I've never known anyone to reach a legitimately definitive conclusion until they've actually been placed in that situation. All the rest appears to me to be largely idle speculation.

Good point, Piobair. Personally, and so far, any time I've been in an emergency situation, I've been deadly calm. I've chalked this up to having previously explored what my options would be, so that there is little need for panic. I was simply requesting clarification so that if the situation arose, I would would react with right action as well as calm.

Gassho,

Lisa

[Myoshin]

In the book of my martial art, a samurai technic school, it is written (just to share something):Just win a victory is not a victory. The real victory is to have achieved the goal of not using weapons, not fight, this is wa (harmony), it is heiho (Art of Peace). In the sutra of the essence of evil passions (zuibonnokyo) it says "make hostility to hostility, it is forever to lose all hope of peace. Oppose him simply serenity, it will disappear of itself .. it is a law that comes from ancient times "

Gassho

Yang Hsin

[Khalil Bodhi]

In the book of my martial art, a samurai technic school, it is written (just to share something):Just win a victory is not a victory. The real victory is to have achieved the goal of not using weapons, not fight, this is wa (harmony), it is heiho (Art of Peace). In the sutra of the essence of evil passions (zuibonnokyo) it says "make hostility to hostility, it is forever to lose all hope of peace. Oppose him simply serenity, it will disappear of itself .. it is a law that comes from ancient times "

Gassho

Yang Hsin

Hello Yang Hsin,

This sounds as if it came directly from the Dhammapada, verse 5:

5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.

Source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit...p.01.budd.html

Gassho,
__/\__
Mike

[Myoshin]

Hello Mike, the Dhammapada is the Buddha's teaching? Do you know a little about it?
Thank you for your good job
Gassho

Yang Hsin

[Jundo]

Hello Mike, the Dhammapada is the Buddha's teaching? Do you know a little about it?
Thank you for your good job
Gassho

Yang Hsin

Hi,

The Dhammapada is an anthology of verses attributed to the Buddha, some of them pithy Dharma Teachings and wise sayings gathered from South Asian Suttas and other sources, and some just folk sayings and old Indian mother's advice that came to be attributed to the Buddha somehow. In that way, it is a bit like the sayings of the American Benjamin Franklin such as "Early to bed, early to rise, makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise", but with a Buddhist flavor. Whatever the source of the Dhammapada, it has become, especially in South Asian Buddhist traditions (most of the quotes have a Theravadan Buddhist flavor), a much beloved and cherished collection of quotes and sage wisdom ... such as ...

"The one who has conquered himself is a far greater hero than he who has defeated a thousand times a thousand men."

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought: it is founded on our thoughts, it is made up of our thoughts. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him, as the wheel follows the foot of the ox that draws the carriage."

“When a man dwells on the objects of sense, he creates an attraction for them; attraction develops into desire, and desire breeds anger.”

“Just as a flower which seems beautiful and has color but has no perfume, so are the fruitless words of the man who speaks them but does them not”

Recommended to all.

Gassho, J

[threethirty]

This thread has seemed to me kinda like suffering about the potential of future suffering. I get asked alot "what would you do if I did this?" to which I respond "please don't do that" In the present moment the right thing happens and there will karma no matter what you choose. Compassion is the most important thing to remember in any dealings with all beings. I have a similar question to this come up often at work (I work for two peace churches), they don't understand how Kung-Fu is peaceful...

Just my two cents,

[Hans]

Hello,

may I make some general observations, and yeah, this is a bit of a rant, and intentionally so, so please don't continue reading if you are easily offended.

A lot of us westerners in particular have certain ideas we like to entertain, and will then go out to find authoritative statements to support that view. Sometimes it might be more honest to say " Well, my relgious tradition teaches XYZ in general , but to be perfectly honest I don't think I can live up to that standard."

One should not try to bend the Buddhadharma into a shape that one personally finds pleasing IMHO, but obviously there is not ONE sacred text that has the power to annull all other lore in our tradition.

My very subjective bottom line is that we are raised with fighting and war being glorified everywhere, mainstream media outlets that don't show us the knitty-gritty pictures of civilians being blown to pieces and the suffering of those who are "only" the victims of physical assault, rape etc. in a more domestic situation.

I find most of Japan's Samurai culture to be a highly idealized pipe-dream that might seem like a wonderful source of inspiration to those who nowadays dream themselves into the Samurai's position....but don't think how it was being a peasant at that time. I love Musashi as much as the next guy, but seriously, it took this guy decades to discover that killing dozens of people in times of peace was not really such a splendid idea. Yeah, great. What a wonderful example, and his calligraphy was great too.

The world doesn't need more people willing to hurt others for whichever reasons, it needs people with a healthy relationship with their own aggression and the guts to stand their ground and endure suffering before jumping on the "pre-emptive strike" wagon.

If we or our family members get physically attacked, we will all do what we will do...some of us will be paralysed with fear, others will defend themeselves and their loved ones...others might think one second too long about the situation and lose it all.

Though seemingly necessary at times and the only way out, violence will always be unskillful and should never be viewed as a perfectly okay reaction.


Gassho,


Hans Chudo Mongen

[Khalil Bodhi]

Hello,

may I make some general observations, and yeah, this is a bit of a rant, and intentionally so, so please don't continue reading if you are easily offended.

A lot of us westerners in particular have certain ideas we like to entertain, and will then go out to find authoritative statements to support that view. Sometimes it might be more honest to say " Well, my relgious tradition teaches XYZ in general , but to be perfectly honest I don't think I can live up to that standard."

One should not try to bend the Buddhadharma into a shape that one personally finds pleasing IMHO, but obviously there is not ONE sacred text that has the power to annull all other lore in our tradition.

My very subjective bottom line is that we are raised with fighting and war being glorified everywhere, mainstream media outlets that don't show us the knitty-gritty pictures of civilians being blown to pieces and the suffering of those who are "only" the victims of physical assault, rape etc. in a more domestic situation.

I find most of Japan's Samurai culture to be a highly idealized pipe-dream that might seem like a wonderful source of inspiration to those who nowadays dream themselves into the Samurai's position....but don't think how it was being a peasant at that time. I love Musashi as much as the next guy, but seriously, it took this guy decades to discover that killing dozens of people in times of peace was not really such a splendid idea. Yeah, great. What a wonderful example, and his calligraphy was great too.

The world doesn't need more people willing to hurt others for whichever reasons, it needs people with a healthy relationship with their own aggression and the guts to stand their ground and endure suffering before jumping on the "pre-emptive strike" wagon.

If we or our family members get physically attacked, we will all do what we will do...some of us will be paralysed with fear, others will defend themeselves and their loved ones...others might think one second too long about the situation and lose it all.

Though seemingly necessary at times and the only way out, violence will always be unskillful and should never be viewed as a perfectly okay reaction.


Gassho,


Hans Chudo Mongen

Thank you Hans!

Gassho
__/\__
Mike

[Ekai]

I believe violence is very unskillful however if a woman is faced with using self-defense as a last resort to prevent herself from being brutally raped, I don't see that as unskillful but more of an obligation. The same thing applies to protecting their child as long as the defense stops once the attack is controlled. It becomes violent when the person defending themselves proceeds to attack the assailant after the situation is under control which is called turnabout.

Gassho,
Ekai

[disastermouse]

Threads like this really make me wanna smack someone. Wait...as a Buddhist, am I allowed to laugh at The Three Stooges? /funny(?) stuff

In all seriousness, it doesn't matter what the Buddha said if we can't find our way to it. What are the root causes of violence? Kill those (and also the Buddha).

Chet

[Hans]

Hello Chet,

I would like to believe that I can understand you. But whether we like it or not (and ultimately I am with you), if we do not carefully look at what certain teachings were, we are running the risk of proclaiming anything that fits our own preconceptions as the Dharma.

If these questions do not arise in you, it's fine Chet, just practise. If someone is trying to find out about possible teachings that relate to ethical dilemmas etc., it's not always good enough to say just sit. A lot of war-butchers were really good at sitting.

Most teachings were given for a reason. The raft is to be abandoned after one has completely crossed the river. Up until that point it's pretty important for most practitioners to look at what the old raft builders had to say, even if one discovers that one has to build one's own raft in a slightly different way, due to different circumstances

Maybe you should look at where the wish to smack someone comes from.

Nobody here is talking about set-in-stone doctrines.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen