Violence and self-defense

[Jundo]

Hi,

I always speak honestly about this ...

It is my conviction (almost happened once, in fact... and having lived in drug and gun Miami much of my early life, it is not a mere hypothetical) that if I found an intruder in our house anywhere near my children or wife, I would hit him hard with a baseball bat, use a knife or any other weapon handy (I do not believe in guns in the house) ... hit him until he stopped moving (when it comes to PCP and other drugs, that may take some effort) ... then chant for him after. I have no doubt.

Although he may be a victim of greed, anger and ignorance ... I would not hesitate to stop an intruder including the use of deadly force if necessary.

Having sat with this question each year as we reflect on the Precept on Preserving Life, I am comfortable with such an action under those circumstances, and I am willing the carry any Karma which may result.

I don't think it good to play the saint "beyond" all such things, cause this world is ugly sometimes.

Gassho, J

[Hans]

Hello Jundo,

I am pretty sure I'd do the same Jundo, the thing is that we might have to accept that sometimes circumstances lead us into a corner that won't allow us to do anything other than the not-so-skillful-and-nice solution.

If I met a starving tigress I believe I wouldn't sacrifice my body just to feed her cubs.... My point is that we can take the "let's be realistic" approach also too far. One moment it's turn the other cheek, only a few generations later it's warrior monks (doesn't matter whether at Hiei-zan or in a Knights Templar castle).

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[Jundo]

Hi Hans,

Yes, we must always seek to avoid violence (although not always possible) and to avoid to fall into extremes.

Gassho, Jundo

[Mp]

Hi,

I always speak honestly about this ...

It is my conviction (almost happened once, in fact... and having lived in drug and gun Miami much of my early life, it is not a mere hypothetical) that if I found an intruder in our house anywhere near my children or wife, I would hit him hard with a baseball bat, use a knife or any other weapon handy (I do not believe in guns in the house) ... hit him until he stopped moving (when it comes to PCP and other drugs, that may take some effort) ... then chant for him after. I have no doubt.

Although he may be a victim of greed, anger and ignorance ... I would not hesitate to stop an intruder including the use of deadly force if necessary.

Having sat with this question each year as we reflect on the Precept on Preserving Life, I am comfortable with such an action under those circumstances, and I am willing the carry any Karma which may result.

I don't think it good to play the saint "beyond" all such things, cause this world is ugly sometimes.

Gassho, J

Thank you for this Jundo ... as yes, I agree, the world is ugly sometimes. I was taught through my Aikido sensei that violence is uncontrolled intention. If you are attacked ... be pure in your attention to protect yourself and loved ones, but also to protect your attacker. Having pure intention for your attacker will help in ensure you don't use excessive force.

... and yes, chant afterwards.

[disastermouse]

Hello Chet,

I would like to believe that I can understand you. But whether we like it or not (and ultimately I am with you), if we do not carefully look at what certain teachings were, we are running the risk of proclaiming anything that fits our own preconceptions as the Dharma.

If these questions do not arise in you, it's fine Chet, just practise. If someone is trying to find out about possible teachings that relate to ethical dilemmas etc., it's not always good enough to say just sit. A lot of war-butchers were really good at sitting.

Most teachings were given for a reason. The raft is to be abandoned after one has completely crossed the river. Up until that point it's pretty important for most practitioners to look at what the old raft builders had to say, even if one discovers that one has to build one's own raft in a slightly different way, due to different circumstances

Maybe you should look at where the wish to smack someone comes from.

Nobody here is talking about set-in-stone doctrines.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

Almost all of that was said in jest, Hans. I'm feeling the levity in Leviticus. It's not that I don't think we should measure ourselves against our forebears, it's that pure mimicry won't win the day. Smiling at the neighbor I hate won't do much but make me smile creepily. Being able to see myself as him might turn my heart.

In the end, I don't think we disagree as much as we seem to.

Gassho.

Chet

[Tb]

Hi.

In my humble opinion it is an issue of not misusing force and violence ,and this doesn't have to be in physical form, but can take other forms as well.
And if you look onto what, according to Legend, The buddha did say i believe you will find that there are instances where he says the opposite to what Zenharmony brought up.
But for me, it's not as simple as black and white situations, and if a man pulled knife on me i would show him, if able to, my "black-belt-in-100-yard-dash"-skills, if not i would show him some other skills...
It all depends on the circumstances, but we should do the best we can to avoid harm, even though it sometimes means we need to deal it.

At the end of the day, what matters is what you do, not what you think you might.

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[disastermouse]

But for me, it's not as simple as black and white situations, and if a man pulled knife on me i would show him, if able to, my "black-belt-in-100-yard-dash"-skills, if not i would show him some other skills...
Fugen

I would show him some other skills
some other skills
other skills
skills

[Yugen]

Student to Teacher: I would like to learn self-defense

Teacher replies: Which self is it that you would like to defend?

Often the type of response/technique employed reflects the ego of the person involved: the "stand your ground" legal debate in the U.S. is a reflection of that fact. Many of these cases would be avoided if the party claiming they "stood their ground" had disengaged and walked away. Possession of a weapon or and/or skills often leads one to a different calculus in making decisions to engage/respond/walk away. There are many brown belts and newly minted dan-rank students who are itching to see if "this stuff works." I have heard many say "I won't start something but boy, I will finish it."

What has been left unmentioned in this discussion are the legal ramifications of self-defense actions. One of the responsibilities of learning defensive techniques is to understand the legal ramifications of their applications in various scenarios. Not sexy, not cool or flashy, but vitally important. The more "credentialled" one is in a martial art(s), the higher the responsibility attached to any use of force (the old "these hands are deadly weapons" scenario). Credentials can be a dan certificate, a concealed carry permit, a completed course in tactical pistol.... etc.

The number of episodes in which potential options are reduced to "fight your way out of a corner" are so few in reality .... our perceptions and egos under the influence of adrenaline produce tunnel vision and focus upon a fight or flight option. The purpose of training is to produce the ability to manage one's emotions and reactions so as to control the engagement (as well as the terms of the engagement - terrain - position - psychology) and produce alternate outcomes.

Gassho
Yugen

[Ekai]

The number of episodes in which potential options are reduced to "fight your way out of a corner" are so few in reality .... our perceptions and egos under the influence of adrenaline produce tunnel vision and focus upon a fight or flight option. The purpose of training is to produce the ability to manage one's emotions and reactions so as to control the engagement (as well as the terms of the engagement - terrain - position - psychology) and produce alternate outcomes.

Gassho
Yugen

For women, it's best to avoid situations that potentially can put you in danger. Being aware of your surroundings, trusting your intuition and projecting confidence are important actions to avoid being attacked. If you can walk away or talk your way out of it, great. If not, well do what you need to do to get away safely.

Rape, domestic abuse, sexual abuse and violence against women is not a rare occurrences. I know a handful of friends who have suffered from these terrible experiences. Here are some stats:

• A woman is raped every 46 seconds in America... that's 78 rapes each hour!
• Every day, four women are killed by their abusive partners
• 25% of girls and 17% of boys will be sexually assaulted by the time they are 18 years old
• 14% of all American women acknowledge having been violently abused by a husband or boyfriend
• 75% of domestic homicides occur after the victim has left the perpetrator
• 28% of all homicides of women are domestic violence related
• 95% of reported domestic assaults the female is the victim and the male is the perpetrator
• 75% of every rape is committed by a man that the victim knows
• 25% of rapes take place in a public area or a parking garage
• one in four college women have survived rape or attempted rape in their lifetime.
• 1 of 6 U.S. women and 1 of 33 U.S. men have experienced an attempted or completed rape. (according to Colorado Coalition Against Sexual Assault)
• 60% of all rapes or sexual assaults in the United States are never reported to the authorities

And the list goes on and on....

Gassho,
Ekai

[Yugen]

Ekai,
Thank you for providing this data. My statement was not intended to minimize the seriousness and frequency of violence against women.

It would have been helpful for me to have been clearer in the perspective I was addressing, which was primarily "stand your ground" situations, undeniably from a subjective, and male perspective. Your comments regarding awareness/control of surroundings and environment are spot on not only for women but men as well.

My comments regarding legal perspectives of use of force stand on their own I believe.

Thank you for providing this clarification.

Gassho
Yugen

[RichardH]

For women, it's best to avoid situations that potentially can put you in danger. Being aware of your surroundings, trusting your intuition and projecting confidence are important actions to avoid being attacked. If you can walk away or talk your way out of it, great. If not, well do what you need to do to get away safely.

There is the flip side to this that men can mindful of. For example, if a man is walking down a dark street late at night, and you see a woman walking toward you.. cross over to the other side, and spare her the anxiety. There is a sense of physical safety that men take for granted in most situations... and we can be oblivious to what it is like to feel unsafe.

Gassho, kojip

[Hoyu]

There is the flip side to this that men can mindful of. For example, if a man is walking down a dark street late at night, and you see a woman walking toward you.. cross over to the other side, and spare her the anxiety. There is a sense of physical safety that men take for granted in most situations... and we can be oblivious to what it is like to feel unsafe.

Gassho, kojip

Great idea!
It reminds me of something similar I've learned in a course once. The instructor gave some sound advice should one ever get pulled over by the police.
He said immagine the state of mind you would be in(if you were the police officer)when approaching a vehicle(especially at night). With so many unknowables(who you or any of your passengers are, if anyone is armed....etc) it is easy for them to be in an agitated state brought on by this heightened level of anxiety. They certainly aren't going to be in a good mood and you could easily leave the encounter without concidering his emotions only to drive off with your ticket whilst writing him off as a big jerk. That's one way to do it. But the instructors advice was to pull over turn on the lights inside the car and wait with your hands on the steering wheel(passengers on the dashboard). The affect of this is quite disarming for the stress level of the officer. First he can see into the inside of the vehicle better and 2nd he knows exactly where your hands are and that they hold no weapons. Now that he is more secure your encounter is surly going to be more pleasent. The instructor did mention that doing this, he felt, has gotten him out of tickets. But most importantly in my opinion is considering the officers level of fear. Just doing this as a service to alleviate that little bit of stress in the life of a fellow person who really has a stressful job!

Gassho,
Hoyu

[charst46]

I work in a prison system as a supervisor. Violence is an everyday occurrence. Perps tend to believe that what they are doing is rational or in keeping with what they feel is the morally correct position. Hans has outlined that rationalization process very nicely. My response is always to step in and stop that process. Frequently that simply means using force and overwhelming force at that to stop the physical process. But Karma being what it is, the intention is not stopped simply because the perp is physically restrained. About that I can do little. Certainly I try to 'reason' with the person; I ask them what their intention was, why they chose that line of action and try to show an alternative. But with the case of gang members, my being on the 'otherside' prevents my really being heard.

It is their rationalization process that needs to be broken through. And the same exists for the victims. Often the victims are those who have been repeatedly violated. I am not blaming the victim here, they are not responsible for the actions of the perps. But when you see an individual who has been assaulted for the 6th time in as many months or days, I begin to look at their motivations; why are they doing what they do to provoke this. Sometimes it is a mirror of the perps: that is the only way to be, exist: a deeply held belief that they are here so others can abuse.

Again it goes to Karma and intention: the attachment to something that is in fact self-harming.

[Yugen]

The purpose of training is to disrupt the rationalization process or existing emotional conditioning so that the mind is opened to alternative choices and courses of action. Only when this rationalization process is disrupted can intention be revealed and confronted.

Charst46, thank you for your post.

Deep bows
Yugen

[Rich]

The purpose of training is to disrupt the rationalization process or existing emotional conditioning so that the mind is opened to alternative choices and courses of action. Only when this rationalization process is disrupted can intention be revealed and confronted.

Charst46, thank you for your post.

Deep bows
Yugen

Very true yugen. Thx for your insight. We are animals who when threatened lash out. This instincsual reaction has to be recognized and controlled. This is the start of self defense. Whether to turn the other cheek, run, or nuetralize/ disable the other depends on the situation.