Zazen only a drop in the bucket?

[murasaki]

I'd like to hear people's thoughts on this one...

I am sitting more regularly (people who've heard me say that 30 times please ignore that statement), and learning to drop thoughts in a way I thought was good enough, but I am really having lots of chatter going on and on in my head. Not the schizophrenic type of chatter, but a constant stream of everyday nonsense: Going over and over again in my mind what I said in answer to a question someone asked me. What to say if Mom asks me about such and such. Conversations I had with people both good and bad. Talking to myself about plans for the near future and blah blah blah...the list goes on.

It seems like it's gone so far beyond my control. I find myself in some sort of inner rap session every moment I'm not in a meeting or otherwise engaged with other human beings (and even then it can happen).

I don't want to go to my med provider and ask for some pill for it that will make me stoopid (sic). That won't help anything. But I don't know if it's physiological, or if I just let myself do too much of what I seem to always have done naturally, and now I'm stuck in a cycle.

Should I be sitting several times a day? Eating more broccoli? Has anyone been through this, and how did you resolve it?

Gassho,
Julia

[Kyonin]

Hi Julia!

My head usually was like that a few years back. Like a monkey jumping all over the planet.

In my limited experience I can say that sitting twice a day helped me a lot. Once at dawn, the second in the afternoon.

Being the first one my long sitting. In my case that is 35 or 40 minutes.

Also, I have found that exercising helps a lot to get your mind focused. Maybe a little running 3 times a week? That's what I do

While sitting all I do is just not to comment or "grab" thoughts. I just let them go.

Hope that helps.

[Dosho]

Julia,

I think the key phrases in your post were "good enough" and "beyond my control"...it's beyond good, bad or control. But, that's the usual line and I understand where you are coming from. I can only speak to my own experience as a humble novice priest, but I had the same thing for a long time and still do once and again. The thoughts never go completely away, it just gets a bit easier to let go of them. I spent a long time getting caught up in how to do zazen "properly" and believe me when I say that you are doing zazen just fine. These thoughts are traps we have set up for ourselves that even the most dedicated practioner can fall back into. Give yourself a break, relax as much as possible, and let the thoughts come. All of them! It will be overwhelming at times but keep with it and try your best not to label anything during zazen as good or bad. It just is.

Just my $0.02.

Gassho,
Dosho

[Shohei]

Hi Julia
I will only speak for myself here but I will say that conversations in my head come and go, so many factors in our lives bring them up. One thing I have noticed is the minute(or minutes) I stopped trying to not focus on them they got a bit easier to drop or let go of as Kyonin said.

Let them come up, but do not follow them too far. Sitting seems to help the conversations settle more too. The times I sit less, are the times I find my inner conversations more regular and during my day to day stuff too. Sitting more often (read regularly...) the less I notice them.

Broccoli I cannot say but perhaps less caffine if your prone to a lot (like me!).

I would approach this gently... sitting does not HAVE to be just this way or else its no good/less good/useless(well...hehe its good for nothing but....)
So far you have noticed the chatter and the cycle...so I would say keep sitting and paying gentle mind to it and let it go when you do catch yourself, with out worrying about the quality of zazen.

Gassho
Shohei

Edit just hit post and noticed Dosho's post... Ditto what he just said!

[andyZ]

hi Julia,
from my own experience, if the chatter is just too much I start counting breaths. Even though it's such a basic practice and usually given to "novices" but it works every time.

[Myozan Kodo]

Hi Julia.
I think this is pretty normal and not something to worry about. There is much wisdom in the words above.

Maybe a chat with one of the teachers might be a good idea?

Gassho and take care
Myozan

[Shujin]

So much good advice here; thank you, all. Just wanted to add that I would consider myself a borderline or undiagnosed case of ADHD. My oldest son was diagnosed with ADHD recently, so it's in my genes somewhere. Anyhow, I've had problems like this all my life so I empathize with your situation. Ultimately, as disorderly as it is, I've come to accept that is simply my zazen. And, to borrow from Maezumi Roshi, "your zazen is the zazen of the buddhas."

Gassho,
Shujin

[Kaishin]

Things that have helped me to "settle down" tremendously, in life in general, not just in zazen:

- Zero caffeine (was a nightmare to quit but I feel so much better and "level" now)
- Regular exercise. I'll second Kyonin on the running!
- Cut out junk food as much as possible
- Limit TV/net surfing/news reading+watching -- after abstaining from these for a week, I was amazed at how agitated I felt upon resuming.

But I wouldn't worry too much about scattered thoughts. Just don't hold them.

Oh, and read "Opening the Hand of Thought" on the Treeleaf book list if you haven't already. I just finished re-watching all of Jundo/Taigu's Intro to Zen videos as well--interesting how many new things you pick up or re-learn things you'd forgotten. Might be worth a re-watch for you too.

Best of luck! Let us know how it goes.

[Ekai]

Your experience with the mind chatter is normal. Over time, your ability to let of your thoughts will improve. There are days when my mind is clear like the deep blue sea but other days, I feel the mental waves throwing and crashing my mind about like a tiny rowboat riding in the midst of a sea storm. Keep sitting while letting go of expectations and judgements on whether it's good or bad Zazen. The fact you are noticing your mental chatter, it is a very good step. You are becoming mindful of what is happening inside and now you know what to let go of.

Gassho,
Ekai

[Jinyo]

Things that have helped me to "settle down" tremendously, in life in general, not just in zazen:

- Zero caffeine (was a nightmare to quit but I feel so much better and "level" now)
- Regular exercise. I'll second Kyonin on the running!
- Cut out junk food as much as possible
- Limit TV/net surfing/news reading+watching -- after abstaining from these for a week, I was amazed at how agitated I felt upon resuming.

But I wouldn't worry too much about scattered thoughts. Just don't hold them.

Oh, and read "Opening the Hand of Thought" on the Treeleaf book list if you haven't already. I just finished re-watching all of Jundo/Taigu's Intro to Zen videos as well--interesting how many new things you pick up or re-learn things you'd forgotten. Might be worth a re-watch for you too.

Best of luck! Let us know how it goes.

Hi Julia - I agree with Kaishin's advice. My home page used to be the BBC news site. I changed it to a calm picture - it made a big difference. Our minds are so overstimulated on many, many levels.

I've stopped aiming for anything while sitting - most times my mind is scrambled - I'm in awe of anyone who has mastered sitting for hours.

There's been a lot happening in your life - probably settled thoughts are easier to access when preceded by calm events.


Be kind to yourself,

Gassho

Willow

[Dojin]

Hey Julia.
i know alot of things already been said about it. and i pretty much agree with all of the above. but i will still share a little bit of what i think and had experienced in that regard.

when i first started sitting years ago i was amazed at home much cleared my mind has become until i began noticing thoughts on a deeper leve i was never aware of. it seemed overwhelming how much chatter ran through my mind. but with time it too subsided and i found clarity and quiet.
with time i found an even deeper layer. and so the process went on and on. with time i just accepted the fact that my mind will always work a million miles a minute. it changed a lot! less thoughts and chatter started to see the clear sky in zazen. had moments where no thought came up at all for a long time... (not really true, i realized later) and suddenly i started noticing clouds. there were thought creeping in. i tried fighting it but the more i fought the faster i lost. so i just listened to Jundo. i dropped all thought of thought. i let it go! when a thought comes i see it accepted it, i let it run its natural course until it expends itself. you would be surprised how many of them come. movies i've seen, books i've read, music i herd, people conversations, things i have on my mind lately... pretty much everything!
now days i just sit and try not to notice it. just let go. i sometimes feel like the thought and me are almost separate.... they float like clouds and i just acknowledge them. sometimes it feels like im not really there.
in the end there are days its easy to sit and days where i even feel so tired i am not sure whether im awake or asleep... i might be sleeping zen or just dropping everything so much i do not notice myself.
in either case just accepted it and let it go.

thats my very long and pointless rambling about something insted of just keeping silent.
forgive me for burdening you with my incoherent rant...

Gassho, Dojin.

[Kyonin]

- Limit TV/net surfing/news reading+watching

How could I forget this! Kaishing, you are right!

Lowering your media consumption will make your mind a lot calmer and more focused.

I used to be a Google Reader addict and since I left that service, I can say that my stress levels (along with the monkey mind) became much more bearable.

Yes... reduce media and be happier

[Risho]

Hi Julia.
I think this is pretty normal and not something to worry about. There is much wisdom in the words above.

Maybe a chat with one of the teachers might be a good idea?

Gassho and take care
Myozan

Word (american slang meaning I agree. lol ) The level of chatter in my head is directly proportional to how I let myself react to the day's events. Stressful day? I tend to have more chatter; I catch myself designing solutions for work problems sometimes. Or mock arguments with people, if those people said something to piss me off. lol I think the more I sit the more I realize how much my mind is doing this. There are no distractions, so you can really pay attention to what goes on in your mind. But just keep sitting. Don't worry about it, just keep sitting

Gassho,

Risho

[Koshin]

Oh, and read "Opening the Hand of Thought" on the Treeleaf book list if you haven't already. I just finished re-watching all of Jundo/Taigu's Intro to Zen videos as well--interesting how many new things you pick up or re-learn things you'd forgotten. Might be worth a re-watch for you too.

I am doing that with the vids already...and I think that book is great In my humble (and probably wrong) opinion, the fact that you have that monkey jumping in your mind is normal as a human being, otherwise you would be a rock; the fact that you can actually be aware of it´s jumps (a.k.a. "thoughts") is great because it is your chance to get back to your "Zazen" line (a.k.a. The reality of your life in that very moment) .... just open the hand of tought and let go, return to your Zazen posture, one an one thousand times...

mmmh it would make more sense if you could read the book please excuse my poor wording

[disastermouse]

Julia,
I have a genuine case of ADHD, so what you're describing is not foreign to my experience. I've talked to some people who've been sitting who do report an actual INCREASE in mental chatter after they've been meditating for a little while - although it's hard to say whether it's an actual increase or just a much closer awareness of the mental chatter. I don't know if shikantaza is a prescription for anything, but I do remember from back when I did sit everyday - it does subside after awhile. Genuine curiosity about the internal dialogue may do more to silence it than opposing it...

Chet