Zazen only a drop in the bucket?

[RichardH]

After sitting regularly for twenty-five years.. this mind is no less chatty than it ever was, the difference is that the chatter is not believed nearly as much, and that occasionally it settles out into ineffable forgetting/presence. When I first began sitting(in another tradition) the goal was the Jhanas, so developing calm and one-pointed concentration was important. The problem was that after getting up from the cushion, Samsara was still not a friend. Zazen, especially as taught by Jundo and Taigu, has brought home practice as being about realizing the unconditioned in both a chatty and a still mind.

[Rich]

Serenity now _ that was a funny video from a tv show about nothing .

Wouldn't it be nice towatch the chatter like you were watching seinfeld. That would be funny.

[disastermouse]

Serenity now _ that was a funny video from a tv show about nothing .

Wouldn't it be nice towatch the chatter like you were watching seinfeld. That would be funny.

You'd just start talking to yourself about the show....which would become its own show.

Chet

[ZenHarmony]

I often repeat to myself "No more stories, no more stories" or simply "Sweep, sweep".

Gassho
Gary

"Sweep, sweep." I like that, Gary; short, sweet, to the point, and probably very effective. I'll give that a try!

Gassho,

Lisa

[RichardH]

You'd just start talking to yourself about the show....which would become its own show.

Chet

Consider this, Chet. Before ever practicing every thought and perception that arises is unseen for the most part, because I am completely involved in the content of thought....100%.... overlapping and endless. No gap of clear sky, not a single taste of non-dukkha, the Third Noble Truth.. Total delusion. Then consider after practicing, watching thoughts come and go on the cushion for some years .... thoughts aren't all absolute and end to end... there is a genuine taste of the The third Noble truth, of genuine clear sky.... and generally thoughts are a little bit more transparent. Many, maybe even most thoughts are still being reified all the time... and there is still deeply ingrained habitual delusion. Even so, the latter, deluded, practitioner has realized a great liberation and miracle, IMHO. .and practice goes on.



Just riffing.. posted waaay too much this week. gassho, kojip

[disastermouse]

Hey Kojip,

If you think it's hard and takes forever, lo and behold, it's hard and takes forever. I think we like being invested in our thoughts and maybe sometimes we think we can substitute 'bad' story thoughts with 'good Buddhist' story thoughts.

I'm never so encouraged as when I hear Taigu say he doesn't give a shit about Buddhism. I think it's a quintessentially Buddhist thing to say. It's uplifting because I don't think I could ever be a very 'good' Buddhist.

Chet

[RichardH]

Hey Kojip,

If you think it's hard and takes forever, lo and behold, it's hard and takes forever. I think we like being invested in our thoughts and maybe sometimes we think we can substitute 'bad' story thoughts with 'good Buddhist' story thoughts.

I'm never so encouraged as when I hear Taigu say he doesn't give a shit about Buddhism. I think it's a quintessentially Buddhist thing to say. It's uplifting because I don't think I could ever be a very 'good' Buddhist.

Chet

You are quite wholly lost in thought, Chet... and no amount of "sudden" fairy dust will change that. I am not saying "it" takes a long time or a short time... only that just as there is "nothing to do" there is "something to do"... If "not giving a shit about Buddhism" means being stuck in emptiness.. I'm at the wrong party.

Gassho, kojip.

[disastermouse]

You are quite wholly lost in thought, Chet... and no amount of "sudden" fairy dust will change that. I am not saying "it" takes a long time or a short time... only that just as there is "nothing to do" there is "something to do"... If "not giving a shit about Buddhism" means being stuck in emptiness.. I'm at the wrong party.

Gassho, kojip.

I don't want to believe any of my thoughts, Kojip. Not even the ones you're responding to. I think what I was trying to say is that the blue sky is immediate, even at midnight - even with the rain falling. In your metaphor, whether the clouds part or not is hardly the point. I don't think I meant to write what I wrote the way you read it - as the reaction is unexpected. I'm not placing blame, just saying that my intention wasn't to provoke (but looking back at what I wrote, I see why it did).

I took up the mantle of the 'good Buddhist' once and I won't ever do it again. I think your words about being stuck in emptiness were picked up somewhere along the way, but it's not for me to say - you could be right! Regardless, I don't want to fight and I don't want to be right. I don't want to beat myself over the head with some of the thicker planks of the great way only because I don't see how they are accurate. If the deficiency is mine, well - it will be until it isn't. I'm open to correction.

Gassho,

Chet

[RichardH]

Hi Chet.. I must be sounding harsher than I mean to,..... Where what i have been taught and practice meets the teachings of Treeleaf (as best i can tell).. is that each moment of practice is complete... whole, yet at the same time there is beginningless greed, hatred, and delusion we are working with. Each moment we truly look and hear is an awake moment... but I also know from experience that looking and hearing can be conditioned by layers of unconscious thinking... and genuinely unconditioned seeing.. requires some sitting.. and more sitting... and more, that's all..

Gassho... kojip. ...and by the way I am frequently swept up in thought as well.

[disastermouse]

Hi Chet.. I must be sounding harsher than I mean to,..... Where what i have been taught and practice meets the teachings of Treeleaf (as best i can tell).. is that each moment of practice is complete... whole, yet at the same time there is beginningless greed, hatred, and delusion we are working with. Each moment we truly look and hear is an awake moment... but I also know from experience that looking and hearing can be conditioned by layers of unconscious thinking... and genuinely unconditioned seeing.. requires some sitting.. and more sitting... and more, that's all..

Gassho... kojip. ...and by the way I am frequently swept up in thought as well.

We're all prone to this - and I didn't mean to imply in any way that I don't get caught up in it. Anyone can tell I'm most definitely quite susceptible to it - that's not even self-flagelation, it's just a simple fact. I'm baffled (after the fact, of course) at where some of my strong feelings come from. A lot of it is basic insecurity masked by righteous indignation and the need to be right. I don't know if I have more existential dread and ego insecurity than most, but I know that in a way I'm glad that I suck so bad at pasting over it with a 'good' Buddhist persona that doesn't portray my flaws to everyone. It's like constantly getting a chance to chuck everything out and start again.

And I think you're right - a large part of the practice is just not feeding back into the layers of delusion - but like a heavy wheel with a lot of momentum, it spins for a long while after you stop pushing it - and from my perspective, I don't even stop pushing it completely, I just push it less than I used to - LOL! I didn't mean to imply that one simply gets an experience of real emptiness and then suddenly it's done. I just meant that in spite of deepest delusion, awake-ness is immediately available in the next breath.

Getting back to the original post in the thread - I'm not sure that anything can be done to banish the mental shit-storm going on in our heads. I just know that even though it isn't 'you' or even 'yours' - that doesn't mean it has to be an enemy either. The wind doesn't push on you for personal reasons, and hating it doesn't help. Once again, not a judgment - just an observation that it doesn't help.

Gassho

Chet

[Jundo]

Hi Chet.. I must be sounding harsher than I mean to,..... Where what i have been taught and practice meets the teachings of Treeleaf (as best i can tell).. is that each moment of practice is complete... whole, yet at the same time there is beginningless greed, hatred, and delusion we are working with. Each moment we truly look and hear is an awake moment... but I also know from experience that looking and hearing can be conditioned by layers of unconscious thinking... and genuinely unconditioned seeing.. requires some sitting.. and more sitting... and more, that's all..

Gassho... kojip. ...and by the way I am frequently swept up in thought as well.

Hi,

I have to say that I feel this is a lovely lovely way to put this, Kojip ... and I also feel that you and Chet are actually not so far apart in what you are saying, and are merely talking past each other a bit.

Yes, as I wrote you recently ...

Well, I would rather say that we are fine as we are, always already Buddha AND we can always do better... until we are perfect Buddha.

Buddha not Buddha ... makes sense to Zennies!

We are always already Buddha ... yet we need to act to realize that fact, clear of greed, anger and ignorance.

There is absolutely no place to fall ... yet we can each fall at any step, acting like a fool or a crook. Buddhism is not an excuse just to act like greedy, hateful, angry asses merely because we are Buddha sitting Zazen on our asses!

Gassho, J

PS - Even a master tight rope walker can tumble with the next step. Anyone can stumble with the next choice, and even some Buddhist Teachers stumble from time to time, some worse than others. I've talked about that before.

http://www.treeleaf.org/sit-a-long/with-jundo-and-taigu/archives/2010/03/sit-a-long-with-jundo-zen-idealists-and-imperfect-masters.html

[Myoku]

"Sweep, sweep." I like that, Gary; short, sweet, to the point, and probably very effective. I'll give that a try!

Gassho,

Lisa

Dont know if you two are aware of the talk Taigu gave on Sweeping, one of my favorites btw,

http://shambhalasun.com/sunspace/?p=17245

Gassho
Myoku