Rebirth

[will]

Now Now Now Now Now... Hang on a minute....




Whew. Ok. Im back.

Now now now now now now now now now....

You know. If you aren't careful you might be reborn in hell or in the animal womb. So, mind your P's and Q's. Treat people good. Not because of the inherent compassion from understanding "we are all part of the same tree". Only because this will prevent you from being born in hell or the animal womb.

Although... being a pet cat might be nice.

Gassho

[BruceS]

Yeah, I remember when I read that it really took me back. I've never read or heard anything similar before.
Gassho,
Bruce

[Jundo]

You know. If you aren't careful you might be reborn in hell or in the animal womb. So, mind your P's and Q's. Treat people good. Not because of the inherent compassion from understanding "we are all part of the same tree". Only because this will prevent you from being born in hell or the animal womb.

Sorry, I don't catch the reference. Are you quoting something Will? Gassho, J

[Bansho]

Hi Mr. Walker,

From just surfing the net, I get the impression that most Zen schools accept the concept of rebirth as fundamental, but that no schools really talk much about it - it's one of the basics of buddhism and therfore an important fundament also in Zen.

I can understand how you may have gotten that impression and don't want to get involved in a long debate, however here are just a few points to consider in addition to what the others have mentioned.

In many Suttas, the Buddha is quoted as citing many occurrences from past lives which he 'remembers'. These Suttas are almost always directed at people outside his Order/Sangha, i.e. not to Bhikkhus, which suggests that the Buddha was attempting to speak to those interested persons on a level which they could relate to, given that reincarnation was taken as given in his day. Also, I've heard from people who know Pali that 'remember' is an incorrect translation. It should be something like 'reflect on' or 'contemplate', which lets Buddhas quotes appear in a completely different light. Last but not least, in certain Suttas the Buddha explicitly rejects the idea of reincarnation as being an idea which is opposed to dependent origination, for example MN 38 http://www.mettanet.org/tipitaka/2Su...-sutta-e1.html

Here's a quote of the relevant passage:

At one time the Blessed One was living in the monastery offered by Anàthapiïóika in Jeta's grove in Sàvatthi. At that time to a bhikkhu named Sàti the son of a fisherman this view had arisen: As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else. Many bhikkhus, heard that this evil view had arisen to a bhikkhu, named Sàti the son of a fisherman: 'As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else'. Then those bhikkhus approached, bhikkhu Sàti the son of a fisherman and asked: Friend, Sàti, is it true, that such an evil view has arisen to you: 'As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else'Yes, friends, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else. Then those bhikkhus, desirous of dissuading the bhikkhu Sàti from that evil view, cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied with him: Sàti, do not say that, do not blame the Blessed One. It is not good to blame the Blessed One. The Blessed One did not say this. The Blessed One has said in various ways, that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness. Even when those bhikkhus, cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied together with him, he held on to his evil view tenaciously and would not give it up and said. 'As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else'

As those bhikkhus could not dissuade the bhikkhu Sàti from that evil view, they approached the Blessed One, worshipped, and sat on a side. They said to the Blessed One: Venerable sir, to a bhikkhu named Sàti the son of a fisherman this view has arisen: 'As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else' Then we approached the bhikkhu Sàti and asked him. Friend, Sàti, is it true, that such an evil view has arisen to you: 'As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else'. Venerable sir, bhikkhu Sàti said thus to us. Yes, friends, 'as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else'. Then, we bhikkhus, desirous of dissuading the bhikkhu Sàti from that evil view, cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied with him: Sàti, do not say that. Do not blame the Blessed One. It is not good to blame the Blessed One. The Blessed One did not say this. The Blessed One has said in various ways, that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness. Even when we cross questioned, asked for reasons and studied together with him, he held on to his evil view tenaciously and would not give it up. As we could not dissuade the bhikkhu Sàti from that evil view, we approached the Blessed One, to inform about this.

Then the Blessed One addressed a certain bhikkhu: Come! Bhikkhu, address the bhikkhu Sàti in my words, tell that the Teacher wants him That bhikkhu agreed and approached the bhikkhu Sàti and said the Blessed One wants you. Bhikkhu Sàti said yes friend and approached the Blessed One, worshipped and sat on a side. Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhu Sàti: Sàti, is it true, that such an evil view has arisen to you. 'As I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness tansmigrates through existences, not anything else'. Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else. Sàti, how is that conscciousness? Venerable sir, this uttering and feeling one, that reaps the results of actions good and evil done here and there. Foolish man, to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. Haven't I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, you foolish man, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit and that will be for your undoing and unpleasantness for a long time.

Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, Bhikkhus, what do you think, shouldn't this bhikkhu Sàti, son of a fisherman be chastised from this dispensation of the Teaching. What is good, venerable sir, why shouldn't we? When this was said, the bhikkhu Sàti became silent, confused, with drooping body and face turned down, sat down unable to reply. Then the Blessed One knowing that bhikkhu Sàti son of a fisherman has become silent, confused, was unable to reply. Said thus to him. Foolish man you will be pointed out with your evil view. Now I am going to question the bhikkhus on this. Then the Blessed One, addressed the bhikkhus: Bhikkhus, do you too know this Teaching, wrongly grasped by the bhikkhu Sàti the son of a fisherman. By that he blames me. Destroys himself, and accumulates much unpleasantness. No, venerable sir. In various ways we are told, that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause there is no arising of consciousness. Bhikkhus, it is good, you know the Teaching preached by me. In various ways I have preached that consciousness arises dependently. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, this bhikkhu Sàti son of a fisherman, grasping this wrong view blames me and destroys himself, and accumulates much demerit. It will be for his undoing and unpleasàntness for a long time.

Gassho
Kenneth

[Martin]

Jordan

Thank you for the links, very helpful.

Gassho

Martin

[Hans]

Hello Folks!

According to my favourite poster on e-sangha's Zen-Forum, Anders Honore, Master Dogen affirms in his Shobogenzo Sanjigo (Karma in the three times) fascicle and Jishin-inga (Deep Faith in Cause and Effect) the literal truth of karma and rebirth in no uncertain terms. Does anyone know of any English translations of these texts online?

It feels really stupid pointing to someone else's stuff again and again, saying: Yeah, that's exactly what I think at this time, but Mr. Honore also summed up my feelings perfectly when he wrote:

" My take on rebirth is that I don't think it's obligatory to believe in in anyway. However, as a general rule I don't think it's wise to out of hand disregard particular teachings of those whom we have faith in on the path, just because what they say isn't apparent to us right now or doesn't appeal to us, whether that be rebirth, the nature of Nirvana or whatever.

I also don't think they taught about rebirth, even to those who patently didn't have empirical knowledge of it, because it was the cool thing to do, but because I think they actually had very thorough and good reasons for bringing it up.

To cite the simile the Buddha used about the handful of leaves compared to all the leaves in the forest - The Buddha's knowledge may have been as expansive as the forest, but he only taught a handful, because that's the part that relates to dukkha and its cessation. So, I think it's worthwhile to at least consider that what he did teach was for a purpose in this regard.

That is really the only reason why I argue against those who would like to write rebirth out of Buddhism. It's not that I think it is what ought to be believed in. Just that if those who mastered the path felt it was superfluous, I reckon they would have left it out and I don't think it's an appropriate role for future generations to try and make themselves wiser about this path than them unless one wants to come out and claim the same or superior attainment. As for what one personally makes of it, that is neither here nor there for me. Buddhism is an offer to sentient beings, not an obligation. "

Here's the link to the whole thread: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... 8623&st=20

Gassho,

Hans

[Fuken]

Martin,
You are welcome!

Gassho,
Jordan

[BruceS]

Some interesting articles .....

This is from Soto Zen journal. :
http://www.sotozen-net.or.jp/kokusai/jo ... n07_07.htm

From a Stanford U symposium Dogen Zen and its Relevance for Our Times:
http://scbs.stanford.edu/calendar/1999- ... /nara.html

Gassho,
Bruce

[will]

Jundo

Sorry, I don't catch the reference. Are you quoting something Will? Gassho,

Talaputa Sutta

On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrel's Sanctuary.

Then Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that."

A second time... A third time Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, said: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of actors that 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

When this was said, Talaputa, the head of an acting troupe, sobbed & burst into tears. [The Blessed One said:] "That is what I couldn't get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.'"

"I'm not crying, lord, because of what the Blessed One said to me, but simply because I have been deceived, cheated, & fooled for a long time by that ancient teaching lineage of actors who said: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas.'

"Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life."

Yodhajiva Sutta

Then Yodhajiva1 the headman went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that."

A second time... A third time Yodhajiva the headman said: "Lord, I have heard that it has been passed down by the ancient teaching lineage of warriors that 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.' What does the Blessed One have to say about that?"

"Apparently, headman, I haven't been able to get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.' So I will simply answer you. When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, his mind is already seized, debased, & misdirected by the thought: 'May these beings be struck down or slaughtered or annihilated or destroyed. May they not exist.' If others then strike him down & slay him while he is thus striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the hell called the realm of those slain in battle. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

When this was said, Yodhajiva the headman sobbed & burst into tears. [The Blessed One said:] "That is what I couldn't get past you by saying, 'Enough, headman, put that aside. Don't ask me that.'"

"I'm not crying, lord, because of what the Blessed One said to me, but simply because I have been deceived, cheated, & fooled for a long time by that ancient teaching lineage of warriors who said: 'When a warrior strives & exerts himself in battle, if others then strike him down & slay him while he is striving & exerting himself in battle, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of devas slain in battle.'

"Magnificent, lord! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has the Blessed One — through many lines of reasoning — made the Dhamma clear. I go to the Blessed One for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Community of monks. May the Blessed One remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life

[Eika]

Words are never capable of expressing any idea completely, so the words of the Buddha are always, in my opinion, about steering the minds of his followers in the right direction so that they might discover the truth themselves. My view of reincarnation is that the Buddha was discussing rebirth because it made sense to the worldview of the folks he was teaching. However, the four Noble Truths and indeed Dogen's teaching of zazen could be seen as being about finding a way to cease the continual choas of the monkey-mind (a moment to moment rebirth of sort). The actions of Buddhism are about the elimination of suffering, not particular beliefs. So whether or not we are viewing rebirth as a coming back to life in a different physical form, or simply the moment to moment creation of a new 'self', the bottom-line is the same: The way to short circuit the process is to stop and be present.

To say it another way, many of our cells die from one second to the next, and all of our thoughts are different from one second to the next, so physically and mentally we are not the same being we were a few seconds ago. There is something that remains there, a kind of coherance, but we are constantly reborn. But, like the Shakyamuni's remarks about other metaphysical questions, I think none of that really matters much because our practice is about the non-speculative experience of the here and now.

Gassho,
Bill

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

Let me give you a take on this (that may or may not be ducking the issue. I think it does not duck the issue really, but makes it a 'non-issue'):

Having read quite a bit of Dogen in Eihei Koroku and other places where he does make statements that ring of reincarnation, I have come to this conclusion:

I think the man lived in the 13th century. 'Reincarnation' was the prevalent way of thinking about these things back then. Dogen came out of the Tendai school of Buddhism, a school of Esoteric Buddhism that taught a pretty standard view of Karma and Reincarnation. Finally, I think that Dogen had not the slightest idea (any more than you or I have) what happens after we die (I mean, maybe he has a better idea now, being dead and all!). I think that he ran hot and cold on the issue.

So, I think that there are writings that indicate he had rather mixed feelings on the issue (much like you and I might have mixed feelings about whether 'God' exists.)

Given all that, Dogen did not make a big deal of reincarnation very often (if ever), and seems to often have rejected it. At other times, he seems to have accepted it. Even when he did discuss it, it often just was not in the way you might expect (I hope we see examples when we start looking at Shobogenzo in a few weeks).

I personally don't think of Karma and Reincarnation (in the literal meaning) as being central doctrines to our Practice. So, I care what Master Dogen thought about it just a little more than I care what Master Dogen's favorite color was. Nice to know, but a side issue.

Does that help?

Gassho, Jundo

PS - I also believe that most of the "Sutras" that claim to speak for the Buddha were written long after the man was dead. They were written by writers with different philosophical perspectives, and often contradict each other ... a Sutra for every philosophical position.

Furthermore (and this may really be shocking to some folks), if the Buddha really did believe in something like Karma and Reincarnation ... well, he might have been WRONG! Or, at least, he might have had little better inside information than we have now about it (despite his suggested, implanted memories of 'past lives'). He too was just a man of his times, 2500 years ago. That was the dominant belief at the time for how the universe worked, and he took it (Heck, someday people will laugh at us now for many of our ideas ... "Ha ha ha, those 21st Century folks actually believed in gravity!") There is a very good chance that, as a human being, the historical Buddha was wrong about many things. He was a very wise fellow, sure, but not infallible. I think that his being wrong about the odd thing has nothing to do with his central message.

I point everyone to this talk I gave awhile back called "THE BUDDHA WAS WRONG!"

http://treeleafzen.blogspot.com/2007/06 ... wrong.html

Gassho again, Jundo (who is always right)

[BruceS]

You know what Jundo? This is why I choose to call you my teacher. You have a way of whacking me with the big stick (virtually) and saying "GET REAL", even though you've never actually said that to me.

I've realized, just in the past month, how many of the Buddhist myths I just took for granted as being real, because "Buddha said it". Maybe some of that is my background in Tibetan Buddhism. I don't know. But, I realize just how "fundamentalist" I had become in many ways and I absolutely despise fundamentalism.

Sure I've thought many of the stories in the sutras, particularly the Mahayana sutras, were a bit fantastic, but I carried on in much the same way my parents believe in the Bible - that every bloody word is literally true - and I think that's childish.

So thank you, and thank you for guiding us in our daily practice. It seems the more I practice the more I only care about now - just taking care of now, and taking care of myself and others. I reckon if we do that then karma and rebirth and Buddha and Jesus or whoever else don't really matter. I would just thank Shakyamuni for getting the wheel turning, if in fact he existed.

Gassho,
Bruce

[Ryumon]

Bruce,

I totally agree with you. My first contacts with Buddmism were through the Tibetan tradition, and I was somewhat surprised at how well developed the whole hagiography was. I eventually gave up because of the structure of Tibetan Buddhism - the ideas that I would have to, say, prostrate 108,000 times just to get a ticket to the enlightenment show, and the fact that they focused so much on enlightenment rather than the here and now.

Kirk

[Mr Walker]

"THE BUDDHA WAS WRONG!"

How about Dogen? 750 years is also a long time :-)



Wassho
Galker

[Jundo]

How about Dogen? 750 years is also a long time :-)

Yes, there is no need to think that anyone is right 100% of the time ... as long as they seem to make sense most of the time. There may also have been several "Dogens", meaning he changed his mind on minor points now and then.

This scholarly article was introduced earlier:

The interpreter of Dogen, as we have seen, is faced with the problem of inconsistencies in Dogen's writings over the progress of his career and with the paradoxical nature of Dogen's method....

Possible inconsistencies between early and late writings should, on the one hand, be considered in the historical context of (1) Dogen's rather unsatisfactory relationship with the Tendai establishment and the Kamakura government, (2) competition with the increasingly popular Japanese Rinzai sect, (3) problems within the order of monks at the Eihei-ji, (4) errors or misunderstandings, as perceived by Dogen, within his community of monks, many of whom had their early training in the Tendai, Tantric (mikkyo), and Daruma schools, (5) Dogen's increasing weakness due to illness toward the end of his life, (6) the possible realization on the part of Dogen that he might not have fulfilled his mission in passing the transmission to a fully qualified successor, and (7) problems of authorship and dating. On the other hand, we should take care not to jump to the conclusion that any particular proposition in the twelve-fascicle edition is necessarily at odds with his position in the earlier writings, because the differing modes of expression in the seventy-five fascicles and the twelve fascicles make such comparisons problematic. Finally, we may conclude that the twelve-fascicle edition can act as a corrective to what Dogen may have seen as misunderstandings of his earlier work, especially with regard to the major themes of Dogen's later writings: the affirmation of Buddhist causality (karma, pratiityasamutpaada) , impermanence, the Bodhisattva vow, the value of the monastic life, and the vow of the Bodhisattva as expressed in the Lotus Suutra.

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenEssays/Dog ... putney.htm

The inconsistencies can be seen mostly on side points, like the question of reincarnation or the value of Koan based meditation. In fact, much of Dogen's writing might be seen as closer to poetry than a philosophical text, as he tries to lead us to certain ways of viewing reality, certain perspectives on time and being, that go against our day to day way of seeing things. So, they are not 'wrong' any more than a poem can be 'wrong'.

But, after reading Dogen for the last 20 years, I say that the guy was on to some things, saw some things that few people can see and knew a very unusual (yet effective) way to express them, leading the reader into that same understanding. You will see when we get into Genjo Koan in a couple of weeks.

Gassho, Jundo