Kinda weird question about Right Speech

[Seisou]

Re: Kinda weird question about Right Speech

Khalil Bodhi,
I see that now Mike. I just remembered that quote (I don't remember where). I thought it was sound reasoning. I will follow your link to learn more. I certainly was not trying to paraphrase for my own benefit. Your clarification is most appreciated.
Gassho
Jeff

[Jundo]

Re: Kinda weird question about Right Speech

Always good to remember: "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own experience and common sense." -The Buddha
Gassho
Jeff

HI Jeff,

This is actually a pretty poor translation/interpretation of the Kalama Sutta. If you're interested in a getting a more in-depth understanding read here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...-essay_09.html

Gassho,

Mike

Yes, actually the Buddha's meaning might also be phrased as "Believe nothing, no matter who said it ... unless I, the Buddha said it" ...

... which (fortunately for us Buddhist folks who Practice this daily) will (even if not at the start of practice, eventually with time ... or I would have not kept walking this Path all these years) come to be proven in our own experience and common sense (though "common sense" with a Buddha's eyes and "common sense" through ordinary, ignorant eyes are not necessarily always the same, as our look at the "common sense" of Koans often shows us).

I think it also important to keep in mind that there is no reason to agree or believe everything that even the historical Buddha said! (That's the kind of statement that get's me in trouble in some corners of the Buddhist world, and kicked out of a couple of more fundamentalist Buddhist forums). Even the more fundamentalist folks will typically explain away the Buddha's sometimes contradictory, seemingly quaint or superstitious statements and Teachings as just his use of "expedient means" meant to cater to his particular audience and their level of understanding, or something just "beyond our understanding" ... but I go a bit farther ...

I even say that maybe, just maybe, the Buddha was not infallible on every darn thing. Not on the vital heart of the teachings, mind you. But while he was 90% right in his proposals, he maybe also had some klunkers and narrow ideas here and there (as fits a man who lived in a traditional, myth based society some 2500 years ago in ancient India) ... like the whole thing about an overly mechanical view of rebirth, the place of women, the need to abandon the world and family in order to Practice and to repress or extinquish (as opposed to moderate & balance & pierce) the desires and emotions, and some other elements of myth and superstition from Indian culture of the times. ... No problem, because the stuff that the Buddha was a genius about is WORTH THE WHOLE PRICE OF ADMISSION!

Gassho, Jundo

[disastermouse]

Re: Kinda weird question about Right Speech

First off, whenever this precept comes up, hypothetical Nazis are not very far behind. One follows the other like the dawn follows midnight.

Secondly, the precepts take a bit of bravery. I challenge anyone who lives among other people to go a WEEK without saying or implying to him or herself, let alone others, something that isn't strictly true. Too often though, I see in myself, and therefore suspect in others, a real tendency to avoid acknowledging to OURSELVES that we are in fact lying. Let alone whether it's justified, I am sometimes uncomfortable looking that closely at it - I remain numb or blind to what I'm actually doing, working at cross purposes, or just generally being unconscious of the mental mechanations at play when I speak an untruth. These lies are damaging not on moral grounds, but they damage our ability to be aware. This isn't strictly a matter of morality, it's a straightforward peril to our ability to remain consciously and act consciously. Hence, if one must lie, don't shy away from it but notice when it's uncomfortable. Then if you examine that discomfort, it may be possible to live in a way that is less psychologically uncomfortable and hence less harmful to others and ourselves.

IMHO.

Chet

[gilles]

Re: Kinda weird question about Right Speech

" ...this muddy world is nourishment and life for the Lotus. "

santa can wait!

gassho
gilles

[Jinyo]

Re: Kinda weird question about Right Speech

Always good to remember: "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own experience and common sense." -The Buddha
Gassho
Jeff

HI Jeff,

This is actually a pretty poor translation/interpretation of the Kalama Sutta. If you're interested in a getting a more in-depth understanding read here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...-essay_09.html

Gassho,

Mike

Thanks for the reference Mike -have just read the above article and pondering on the implications.

Gassho

Willow

[Khalil Bodhi]

Re: Kinda weird question about Right Speech

Always good to remember: "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own experience and common sense." -The Buddha
Gassho
Jeff

HI Jeff,

This is actually a pretty poor translation/interpretation of the Kalama Sutta. If you're interested in a getting a more in-depth understanding read here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/a...-essay_09.html

Gassho,

Mike

Thanks for the reference Mike -have just read the above article and pondering on the implications.

Gassho

Willow

My pleasure. Metta!

Gassho,

Mike

[RichardH]

Re: Kinda weird question about Right Speech

The Kalama Sutta is most quoted Sutta on the internet. ...and that is fishy IMHO, because it can be very convenient.

It is true that the buck stops here.. only I can experience practice first hand.. but.. at the same time, "I know" is a trap. The Kalama Sutta can be worn like a suit of armor. Recognizing the wisdom and maturity of others who can guide me.. was and is essential for keeping an open heart and mind.



Gassho, kojip

[AlanLa]

Re: Kinda weird question about Right Speech

Let's not confuse Right Speech with fact-based only speech. They are not the same thing at all.

And Chet has some good points, too.

[Daijo]

Re: Kinda weird question about Right Speech

We have to remember that sometimes telling the truth can have tragic consequences. If we are causing harm simply for the sake of not lying I have a hard time reconciling that as "right speech."

I actually just read this article on "right lying" @ tricycle.com and then opened this thread,

http://www.tricycle.com/dharma-talk/rig ... g?page=0,0