Do Buddhists proselytize?

[disastermouse]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

For me, if a person is satisfied with whatever religion he has - truly satisfied - then great. More power to him. If that person is not, then he will go out of his way and look around. Based on my own experience, that's the person who will be really open to learning about Buddhism.

Looking back on what I've just posted, this struck me just now as very much rigid, either-or thinking. ops: But the thing is, I don't see the value of sharing beyond a certain point. As I have said, the teachings are out there for anyone with a computer and Internet connection to access. So if somebody asks me about Zen and Buddhism, I'll answer and if he wants to know more, I'll direct that person to the Internet. Probably to Treeleaf if he's really interested. I can also invite that person to sit with me. If he's really interested and we both can find the time. That is the "certain point" beyond which I do not go. Going beyond that feels like I'm selling Zen.

It is interesting how this reflects a paradox inherent in much of what I have seen of Zen.

In one breath to say that I have compassion for all beings and then to follow it with but I am only willing to share to a certain point seems to be contradictory. What is compassion if it is not the willingness to share everything with everyone. ?

There are multiple points upon which we should expand regarding Zen and why its practitioners may be reluctant to over-share. I don't think it's a matter of miserliness or a lack of concern about countless beings. Haven't we all been in a position where someone has 'over-shared' their opinion - especially their religious views - to the point of making us very, very uncomfortable and possibly even less likely to consider those opinions?

Let me advance a typical example of how a conversation between myself and a typical western, un-initiated peer frequently goes (as I am very forthcoming about being Buddhist - most everyone at work knows I'm a Buddhist).

(IP = Interested Party. M = Me)

(IP): "So, you're Buddhist? So Buddha is your God?"
(M): "No. Personally, I don't believe in God. Zen Buddhism itself, especially as practiced in the West, is generally unconcerned by questions of God's existence."
(IP): "So then how do you think all of this was created?"
(M): "I have no idea."
(IP): "Doesn't that bother you?"
(M): "Not as much as I once thought it would."
(IP): "So then what does a Buddhist believe?
(M): "Hmm..where to start? I would say that Buddhism the way that I practice it is less about beliefs than it is about putting down beliefs, at least temporarily. However, there are the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path (I then expound the Truths and as much of the 8FP as I can remember.)
(IP): "Do you pray?"
(M): "I sit zazen. It's meditation."
(IP): "So you try to clear your mind?"
(M): "No, not really. Trying to clear your mind will either cause your mind to go running around like crazy trying to clear itself or at best will only result in an exercise of concentration. It's looser than that....but not as loose as daydreaming. I sit with everything as it is and when I notice myself getting hooked into a line of thought or planning, I simply let go and find myself right where I am. This actually happens a lot. It's more about noticing it without getting upset by it. It's just what's happening."
(IP): "But you get better at it, right?"
(M): "You can't really think of it as trying to get 'better' - the mind is very good at finding very compelling reasons for you to not be with things as they are. Many times, you are both right where you are and also there is a thought conversation going on but it doesn't dominate the space of your mind."
(IP): "I don't understand that at all."
(M): "I barely understand it myself and I feel like I'm not doing a very good job of explaining it."
(IP): "If you don't get peace of mind or salvation from it, why do you do it?"
(M): "Because it's the only thing that makes sense."
(IP): "You're a very strange person."
(M): "I know."


The above conversation is both about as honest and skillful as I can be (fully admitting that I may very well misunderstand our practice and therefore do not explain it well), but it doesn't really make Buddhism seem appealing until you get to the point where 'It's the only thing that makes sense' - not to your logical 'a is not b' mind, but to your whole being as a person. No one can get you there, and honestly, once you do get there, you're well and truly fucked as far as anything else goes.

IMHO.

Chet

[Ryumon]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to accept this whole "no purpose" thing. I've spent some time in the past couple of months reading suttas from the Pali canon. It's clear that the Buddha was, according to one metaphor, a "doctor" offering a "cure" for suffering. I think everyone here came to Zen (or whichever form to Buddhism they first discovered) because they understood the first noble truth, the one about suffering (or dukkha). So saying there's no purpose seems a bit disingenuous.

As one goes on, one can say that sitting has no purpose, but deep down I think we all know that is not really true.

[disastermouse]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to accept this whole "no purpose" thing. I've spent some time in the past couple of months reading suttas from the Pali canon. It's clear that the Buddha was, according to one metaphor, a "doctor" offering a "cure" for suffering. I think everyone here came to Zen (or whichever form to Buddhism they first discovered) because they understood the first noble truth, the one about suffering (or dukkha). So saying there's no purpose seems a bit disingenuous.

As one goes on, one can say that sitting has no purpose, but deep down I think we all know that is not really true.

I disagree, but I'll bite.

What are the purposes of sitting?

Chet

[Ryumon]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

Um, it's the first step toward the elimination of suffering?

See the four noble truths, and the noble eightfold path. (Admittedly not the centerpiece of Zen, but still the roots of Buddhism.)

[Myozan Kodo]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

Hi Kirkmc,

Here’s my take on it, but it’s just the take of another practitioner on the journey, a trainee unsui, no more.

The ‘no purpose’ of zazen happily exists side by side with the fact that it has a purpose. It exists simultaneously. In other words, it is beyond dualism. This is unsatisfying to our normal, rational approach, which we move beyond in zazen as we encounter reality, which itself is non-duel.

This often appears as the ‘trick’ or ‘joke’ of zen: you achieve something by giving up the desire to achieve it (the end of suffering). And zen tradition revels in this apparent contradiction, often with great humour.

But in reality, it has nothing to do with reasoning or intellectual understanding. It is directly apprehended in the present moment of dropping off body and mind. And how in that state can we hope to achieve something in some posited better future? Certainly the desire to achieve the end of suffering in the future cannot mean the state is dwelt h in or inhabited. In other words, we have to let this final desire go.

Well, that’s my take on this matter at this moment. Who can explain the mystery? I can’t.

Gassho,
Myozan

PS: We appear to have the two great plates of the Mahayana and the Theravada rubbing up against each other here.

[Taigu]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

You cannot? Yet, you somehow did!

Gassho


Taigu

[Ryumon]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

Myozan,

An excellent explanation. I certainly understand what you say, and you say it well. Nevertheless, letting "this final desire go" is something that we do with motivation to do so; I don't think it can just happen as a result of someone sitting with no initial motivation. And even if it does happen, one cannot intellectually forget the initial intention. I think that if one reaches such a state, it is with full awareness of that intention, but that intention just no longer matters.

My point was simply to stress that the whole "no purpose" thing can be deceptive.

PS: We appear to have the two great plates of the Mahayana and the Theravada rubbing up against each other here.

Yes, I've been going back to the source in my personal quest for understanding. If one accepts that Mahayana is built on the foundations of Therevada (actually, on the foundations of the Pali canon), then I think it can be very valuable to know what the bedrock of Buddhist thought is.

[disastermouse]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

Gassho, Myozan.

Chet

[Taigu]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

Myozan s sentence coins it :

This often appears as the ‘trick’ or ‘joke’ of zen: you achieve something by giving up the desire to achieve it (the end of suffering). And zen tradition revels in this apparent contradiction, often with great humour.

This is it. The very pearl. What Dogen and all the other guys are talking about.
No intention and there it is. But...making non intention, carving non intention, dreaming non intention won t do...you-me-everybody has to drop the dropping itself, surrender the surrendering, cut the crap and crap the cut, until crap and cut are not two.

Entering the one river two bulls merge.

Can you even remember their names?


Gassho


Golden week Taigu

[Taigu]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

Hi kirkmc,

You bet it can be forgotten... I mean, have you ever had the experience of planing to do something so much desired so much expected and ending up ina complete different place? Well, that is DHARMA.

Much love and deep bows

Chet, thank you for your presence here.


Gassho


T.

[andyZ]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

Hi all,
As for the differences among Buddhist traditions a joke I read recently:

How many Buddhists does it take to change a light bulb?

Theravada: "There's nothing about light bulbs in Pali Canon."
Tibetan: "Two. One gives the initiation one changes the light bulb."
Pure Land: "None. Buddha Amitabha will do it for anyone who asks him."
Rindzai: "Keep this koan in your teeth even if you sleep, eat or break light bulbs with your staff."
Soto: "Why change the light bulbs? When we sit zazen we shine throughout the whole universe in 10 directions."

[Hans]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

Hello,

thanks to all of you for your insightful questions and thanks to Myozan in particular for that last gem.

To this Unsui, the non-goal-seeking "drive" that still gets many of us to sit regularly has a lot to do with the inherent tendency of our awakened nature to realise itself.

Bodaishin.

Like a bent bow, straightening itself after an arrow was loosened.

Dropping body and mind, letting the arrow of dualistic thought and emotions fly, we naturally pursue our path towards further awakening. There is a dynamic there, no doubt (in my mind at least), and we might wonder at our-selves, why we are doing it. We are like the bow in between being crooked and straight. Yet even the fully bent bow is nothing but the bow.

Totally and radically allowing Bodaishin to take us where we never left, now that is what I call a wild ride. Bullseye every moment of the way.

Gassho,

Hans Chudo Mongen

[mr.Lou]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

...tendency of our awakened nature to realise itself.

Bodaishin.

Like a bent bow, straightening itself after an arrow was loosened.

Dropping body and mind, letting the arrow of dualistic thought and emotions fly, we naturally pursue our path towards further awakening. There is a dynamic there, no doubt (in my mind at least), and we might wonder at our-selves, why we are doing it. We are like the bow in between being crooked and straight. Yet even the fully bent bow is nothing but the bow.

Totally and radically allowing Bodaishin to take us where we never left...
Gassho,
Hans Chudo Mongen

This was an excellent clarifying statement, and that is part of the explanation I will now have at the ready when someone asks me why I sit Zazen. It comes to the same effect as trying to describe a goalless practice but more perfectly captures the inherent beauty and fluidity in the Zen tradition.

As a side note, is the Gakudo Yojin Shu the definite source to learn about Bodaishin or is there a thread on here that also touches on this subject?

[Taigu]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

Do not have any ready explanation to give, ( we are not into frozen and ready made stuff here) please,
And bodaisin is found anywhere not just in old dusty texts.

Gassho, Mr. Lou, something you might learn doing, it is fun, meaningful, free, thoughtless, pointless... Just perfectly imperfect.


T.

[Taigu]

Re: Do Buddhists proselytize?

Hi Hans,

Could you please clarify somehow what you mean by Further awakening?

Thank you.

Gassho


T.