Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

[Yugen]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

Hey everyone,

I genuinely care for the people in this dialogue, and I am aware of the history. With regard to the present thread -

There are several conversations going on here -

1) Chugai's posting links to stong and graphic material -

2) Chet, Jundo, and Taigu going back and forth regarding Zen and individual identity, balanced view, displays of violence used to illustrate a point, etc.

3) People trying to discusss the underlying substantive issues to defuse the emotional discourse/content, and the example of the "tough love" teaching method...

I do not want to engage on the substance of the issues - (an unaccustomed position for me to take) - but rather - ask all involved to check themselves by asking a few questions:

1) Is my speech skillful?
2) Is my speech compassionate?
3)Is my speech honest?
4)How will my speech be received by the person I am addressing? What is the point I want them to hear?

There are important issues in this thread that deserve to be discussed to everyone's benefit -

This goes for all of us - in this case we are all teachers and all students - we are all here because we realize that suffering and pain exist in the world. I do not think we need to establish bona fides - Jundo and Taigu witness suffering in many venues, as priests and in their personal lives. Chet, in his work, sees plenty of suffering and pain. No need for one-upmanship. Street cred has been established by all parties.

What is the intention behind the use of harsh words and "I'm taking my ball and going home" forms of speech to characterize one's own or the other's view? I hear what Chet is saying - he feels that that there is an institutional antipathy, or "immune reaction," so to speak, to his posts...

What kind of response does one hope to evoke, or use to signal recognition of Chet's position (whether one agrees or disagrees) by using dismissive forms of speech? What type of outcome is envisioned? Listening and enquiry stop and accusations and finger pointing begin to take place.... (Jen and Willow, Thank you for your powerful posts)

With regard to delusions influencing one's view, and practice, there is no question... no one is immune from the cycles of samsara. I like Kodo Sawaki's description here - "I am deluded with all the gold trimmings!" That certainly goes for me - and practice begins, as I understand it, with that recognition as a starting point..... To me, the important point is how one deals with delusion in the course of how we perceive and relate to life..... teachers, practitioners are humans... we do not look to one another to be perfect but to practice the way.... and we learn from the example, not from words..... we all look to and learn from one another, and learn together. We are people of "no rank"....

The written medium furthermore, can lend itself to misperception - the well-intentioned use of humour to defuse an emotionally charged situation can sometimes be interpreted differently.....

I implore you all to please reflect deeply on this.... we are a sangha - there will be disagreements and strong emotions - how we express them and handle them is the key to our practice in action.....

A deep bow to everyone,
Yugen

[alan.r]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

It seems like things went a bit too far after Jundo's post and maybe that's because it's difficult to read humor on the internet sometimes? I don't know. I completely thought he was being playful. Not that he was disregarding Chet's question, but that the question simply didn't need answered because the answer is obvious (if we take Jen's interpretation): of course we all bring our delusions to practice, teacher and student alike. I honestly wasn't sure what Chet's question was, but enjoyed asking him about it and talking with him.

Still, I'm obviously I'm missing some big past here, so my apologies if I offended you, Chet.

Personally - I find all this talk of 'tough love' and people being needed to get out of the way of themselves, etc a bit macho.

Hi Willow. I can see it being macho, but again, I don't know: there are tons of threads and words on Treeleaf and I haven't seen this come up that often. Then again, I'm pretty much a newbie. There seems to be a lot of gentleness, though, too.

Also, sometimes toughness is needed. Charlotte Joko Beck talks about this a lot: having the guts to look at oneself, to really see if one has the deep down toughness and gutsiness to be compassionate and to be gentle, not just with others flaws, but with oneself as well. It's a terribly difficult thing to really look at oneself. Sometimes there's some unpleasant stuff there.

All in it's own place though: tough when tough and gentle when gentle.

It's spring, let's all go outside.

[Yugen]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

What is tough? Who is tough? Sometimes tough is gentle. Sometimes gentle is tough. Gentle depends on tough, tough depends on gentle. They don't exist independently, but in relation to one another.

Water in its course over time erodes stone and mountains.

It is beautiful out. I'm right behind you Alan.

Gassho,
Yugen

[Rich]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

This could all be due to a solar flare or something. Been a little snappy and unskillful the past 24.

'What if God was one of us'

[Jinyo]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

Rich wrote

This could all be due to a solar flare or something. Been a little snappy and unskillful the past 24.

'What if God was one of us'

Thanks Rich - so glad you're here.

Alan - thanks for your reply. I appreciate what you say - don't have a problem with toughness as such - but that's another topic for another day I think.

Yugen - your thoughtful response is always appreciated.

Well - it's bedtime here in the UK - so whether you're stepping out into the sunshine or turning in to sleep on things -

'Peace be to all beings
May all beings be well and happy
And free from fear'

Gassho

Willow

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

Yes, Chugai is going through some rough times and we should give him some leeway.

But the same goes for Chet in my opinion. He has been quite open about his own diagnoses and has a personality that he can't change that will continue to put him in trouble sometimes. He probably didn't realize that his post could easily be interpreted as "the Zen Jundo is teaching is not real Zen" and I don't think he meant it as an insult.

I think this thread shows that Chet is really trying:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3461

Chet did post a large number of really abrasive posts a while back. I was actually very surprised that Jundo and Taigu allowed him to stay during those times. I'm not sure I would have had the same patience. But the tone of his posts has improved greatly and this last year he has been as gentle as a lamb in my opinion.

I don't think the Sangha turned against you Chet. Some people disliked the abrasive style of your posts, but so many people have expressed that they see you as a valuable member of this Sangha and that they appreciate your contributions. Don't get so hung up on the negative that you neglect the positive!

I posted this in a another thread:

You have come quite far with your own issues this past year too, haven't you? I wish I will be able to work as hard as you with my own issues!

Take care,
Pontus

[Omoi Otoshi]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

I don't understand what Chet has done to elicit the level of harsh responses in this thread - no matter what the past history. It's made me feel very uncomfortable and on edge.

Like they say - if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen - right now I'm finding it uncomfortably hot and I'm not sure I want to stay in the kitchen.

You're a sensitive and honest person Willow. I appreciate that. It's a great quality.

/Pontus

[disastermouse]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

None of what I posted was at all intended to insult anyone - and I got HUGE blowback. I'm a lot of things, but I'm not very sneaky. If I wanted to say that Jundo doesn't teach real Zen, I'd have said exactly that.

My point wasn't to say that anyone wasn't teaching or learning real Zen, but rather that it's amazing how our perspectives of the clear blue sky of Zen get filtered through our own respective lenses. And I thought that maybe we should look at that.

How that turned into the clusterfuck of this thread, I have no idea. And yeah, I'm a bit pissed that every thread I post is suspected to be one that stirs the pot when, in fact, most of my posts since returning have been anything but. I've grown to accept that I'll get nothing but dismissal and bullshit from Taigu, he holds grudges and doesn't let them go. But nonetheless his dismissiveness directs all the rest of the sangha to go along with it, and then pretty soon nothing I say is responded to without derision...and hence, this sangha holds nothing for me but derision. He is not conscious enough to see the effect he has on the entire sangha, because I don't think he's actually that mean-spirited - but it does nonetheless direct the entire sangha that it's open-season on Chet here.

Which is why I gotta go - I'm just tired of getting shot at.

Chet

[Yugen]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

Hey Chet,

You want to sit some zazen? I'm on G+ tonight at 900 PM ET. I'll be sitting. If that doesn't work, let me know when.

Gassho,
Yugen

[will]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

Ok. this has been running through my head this morning, so I'll guess I'll post it here:

ther was a man who had a dog and ego was it's name o

E-g E-g-o

E-g E-g-o

E-g E-g-o

and ego was it's name O


Gassho

W

[disastermouse]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

Ok. this has been running through my head this morning, so I'll guess I'll post it here:

ther was a man who had a dog and ego was it's name o

E-g E-g-o

E-g E-g-o

E-g E-g-o

and ego was it's name O


Gassho

W

More of the same, Will? I don't know if I've ever seen a genuinely revealing post in the entire time you've posted here. It's always so .... distant. You're always at arms length, always responding with a quip or something undecipherably zenny. Sometimes I wonder who's behind the quips and the too-zen-for-zen posts. Surely a decent guy, but I'll be damned if I ever met him.

Chet

[Yugen]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

Too many flapping mouths, mine included .... blah blah blah :lol: . Time to go sit.

Funny how at zazenkai time or looking for sitting partners no one has time, but these threads run on... is this a zendo or a social network?

I hear my zafu calling me. Peace.

Gassho,
Yugen

[disastermouse]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

Too many flapping mouths, mine included .... blah blah blah :lol: . Time to go sit.

Funny how at zazenkai time or looking for sitting partners no one has time, but these threads run on... is this a zendo or a social network?

I hear my zafu calling me. Peace.

Gassho,
Yugen

I thought you were waiting until 9PM.

Chet

[Yugen]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

I'll be there. Please join me.

Gassho,
Yugen

[Taigu]

Re: Even in Zen, God agrees with us.

No grudge, Chet. I have my share of shit but not this one.
I wish you peace and would like you to understand that you are not invited out. I really like what you bring here even if the style is sometimes a bit rough. I just disagree with some of your ideas, not with the man. That's all.

Take care

gassho

Taigu