God and Zen

[Jiken]

Re: God and Zen

I read it Alan. I still respectfully disagree...with just the opinion not the person

Daido

[Omoi Otoshi]

God and Zen

Shujin, Daido, sorry about that!

I come from a family of military officers too and I have served a short time in the army myself. It's not something I regret.
I didn't mean to paint every soldier as evil, not at all. I wouldn't want to live in a country with no military force.

Military training can make people less empathic, but not all people and not all kinds of training. Atrocities are carried out in every war as you know. War does that to (some) people.

Gassho,
Pontus

[Jiken]

Re: God and Zen

Gassho to you Pontus.

Daido

[Shujin]

Re: God and Zen

Gassho to you Pontus.

Daido

Gassho, as well.

Shujin

[Geika]

Re: God and Zen

"I am God and you are God and all that groks is God."

[Run_CMD]

Re: God and Zen

"I am God and you are God and all that groks is God."

Gassho

[Run_CMD]

Re: God and Zen

"I am God."

Maybe the story of Al Mansoor is appropriate in this topic :

From the osho transformation tarot :

When Shibli threw the rose

The first time Shibli's name became known was the time when Mansoor al-Hillaj was being murdered. Many people have been murdered in the past by so called religious people--Jesus was murdered--but there has been never such a murder as happened with al-Hillaj. First his legs were cut off--he was alive--then his hands were cut. Then his tongue was cut, then his eyes were taken out--and he was alive. He was cut in pieces.

And what crime had Mansoor committed? He had said, An'al Hak. It means "I am the Truth, I am God." All the seers of the Upanishads declare this, Aham Brahmasmi--I am Brahma, the Supreme Self." But the Mohammedans could not tolerate it.

Mansoor is one of the greatest Sufis. When they started cutting his hands he looked at the sky, prayed to God and said, "You cannot deceive me! I can see you in everybody present here. You are trying to deceive me? you have come as the murderer? as the enemy? But I tell you, in whatsoever form you come I will recognize you--because I have recognized you within myself. Now there is no possibility of deception."

Shibli was a companion, a friend to al-Hillaj. People are throwing stones and mud in ridicule, and Shibli is standing there. Mansoor is laughing and smiling. Suddenly he starts crying and weeping, because Shibli has thrown a rose at him. Somebody asked, "What is the matter? With stones you laugh--have you gone mad? And Shibli has thrown only a rose flower. Why are you crying and weeping?"

Mansoor said, "People who are throwing stones don't know what they are doing, but this Shibli has to know. For him it will be difficult to get forgiveness from God." He said, "Others will be forgiven because they are acting in ignorance; they cannot help it. In their blindness that's all they can do. But with Shibli--a man who knows! That's why I weep and cry for him. He is the only person who is committing a sin here."

And this statement of Mansoor's changed Shibli completely. He threw the Koran, the scriptures, and he said, "They could not make me understand even this: that all knowledge is useless. Now I will seek the right knowledge." And later on when he was asked, "Why did you throw the flower?" Shibli said, "I was afraid of the crowd--if I don't throw anything, people may think that I belong to Mansoor's group. They may get violent toward me. I threw the flower--just a compromise. Mansoor was right: he wept at my fear, my cowardice. He wept because I was compromising with the crowd." But Shibli understood. The crying of Mansoor became a transformation.

From Wikipedia :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anal_Haq

Mansoor Al-Hallaj was condemned to hang by the neck for shouting in ecstasy Anal-Haq, Anal-Haq (I am the Truth, I am the Truth). The orthodoxy understood this to mean that he was claiming to be God himself, whereas he had proclaimed in his sublime spiritual ecstasy, simply a total annihilation of himself. Mansoor Al-Hallaj climbed the gallows with his head held high, not the least daunted by his imminent death. Nor could his shouts be drowned in the tumult of abuses which were hurled at him; they rose loud and clear and high Anal-Haq, Anal-Haq until his soul departed to the fountainhead of his life on high.

Basheer draws parallel between "Anal Haq" and Aham Brahmasmi the Upanishad mahakavya which means I am Brahman . Basheer uses this term to intend God is found within one's 'self'.

[Shokai]

Re: God and Zen

Hiya gunther;

Enjoyed the stories ( and its sentiment) of the execution of Mansoor Al-Hallaj. However, can't help pondering the glaring contradiction; how was he able to hold his head up high and shout when his legs had been severed and his tongue cut out ?? :roll:

[Porpoise]

Re: God and Zen

Live life, be in every moment, and experience this world through a clarity that does not require God to be, does not refute in God’s existence, and is in accord with the Precepts. God or No-God, who could find fault in that?”

I can't see the point in believing in God, or indeed the point in disbelieving. :wink:

[Geika]

Re: God and Zen

I can't see the point in believing in God, or indeed the point in disbelieving. :wink:

Well said.

[disastermouse]

Re: God and Zen

Live life, be in every moment, and experience this world through a clarity that does not require God to be, does not refute in God’s existence, and is in accord with the Precepts. God or No-God, who could find fault in that?”

I can't see the point in believing in God, or indeed the point in disbelieving. :wink:

The point is to have a place to anchor self. It's misguided, but that's the intent.

Chet

[Run_CMD]

Re: God and Zen

how was he able to hold his head up high and shout when his legs had been severed and his tongue cut out ?? :roll:

:lol: hahah yeah, I don't know if osho's story is 100% historically correct ... :lol:

[Run_CMD]

Re: God and Zen

Today hsuyun.org displayed a quote about Al Hallaj :

“I am He whom I love, and He whom I love is I,
We are two spirits dwelling in one body.
If thou seest me, thou seest Him,
And if thou seest Him, thou seest us both.”

- Al Hallaj (he was accused of claiming divinity and was eventually publicly scourged and crucified.)

So how to see Him?
By sitting zen.

Gassho,

Gunther

[Tobiishi]

Re: God and Zen

My son's girlfriend has synesthesia- she sees colors associated with numbers and words. She didn't know this was different from how others experience things until she was a teenager, and it's hard for her to explain because its all she's ever known. She doesn't have the experience of non-synesthesia to compare it to.

I was raised in a Christian environment, and its similarly difficult for me to think about how the world and its inhabitants work without that religious frame of reference. What I have been able to do over many years of thinking about religion is to distill some of the lessons of Christianity out of the biblical context, and in the process I have discovered that one does not need God to make these lessons sensible. For instance, treating every other person as if he/she were Jesus is supposed to make Christians kind to everyone (doesn't work for most of them), but taken out of context, the practice still works. Treat everyone as if they were part of one's self (which they are in more ways than one) and you accomplish the same end. I think one of the root lessons of the bible is compassion, and when I stopped getting hung up on the biblical labyrinth, and instead focused on what compassion does for the world, it still made sense to practice it.

I'm getting along fine without a personal savior, and have settled into an agnostic frame of mind. As many others have already written here, it doesn't really matter if there is a supreme being or not. Just be.

gassho
tobi