God and Zen

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  • JohnsonCM
    Member
    • Jan 2010
    • 549

    #61
    Re: God and Zen

    alan.r nails it -- no duality ... God is either in all or nothing ... no picking or choosing, no attachment, no duality ... so where is God? In his heaven? In your mind? only in one and not the other? God is everywhere at once or nowhere at all ... no picking or choosing, no attachment, no duality ...

    Riddle me this Batman --- Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

    - Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]

    Does God, evil,malevolence,ability,omnipotence,willingness. all morals, come from inner space or from outer space? Is it my perception of skanda or a cosmic wavelenghth of duality?

    While the Buddha sat meditating beneath a tree, Brahma came and requested him to teach the Dharma. Did Buddha come from his skandas? Did he come from his mother's skandas? Did Brahma come from Buddha's skandas? Did Brahma come from Brahma's skanda's ? Did the Dharma come from Within or Without? Does Brahma come from the God realm or your skanda's?

    The hungry ghosts that haunt you? How do you know them?

    Not One, Not Two
    I only had to look at one of those posted pictures to know this: To look at the image of a man with his head split open and say that it is anything other than a cause for deep and abiding compassion, and a proof that evil exists in the hearts and minds of man, is a misdirection and, frankly, perversion, of the essence of Zen. The notion of ‘not two’ and the exhortation to drop the idea of duality is not to say that evil is not evil and good is not good. It is intended to remind the practitioner that one cannot exist without the other. This co-dependant existence is the joining of both sides of the concept into the ‘One’. Darkness cannot be without Light, if this is so, then Darkness cannot be divided from Light, indeed can you point to where Darkness empirically ends and Light precisely begins? This is the non-dual aspect of our way, the shining Net of Indra which has individual jewels that reflect the myriad other jewels connected to one another with the unbreakable bonds of co-dependant existence.

    I find it interesting, as Hans said, about the Judeo-Christian flavor of the conversations about God and so forth. Lately I’ve been reading what many consider to be ‘esoteric’ texts such as the Kybalion and the Corpus Hermeticum, and I’ve read many interesting things. For example, the older religions all point to the divinity of Man and the presence of the “God within us all” and how our thoughts and intentions (our ‘Will’) shape and change the physical world around us. These thoughts are not so different from our own Zen tradition. The Buddha exclaimed “All beings are the Tathagata, however their delusions keep them from attesting to the fact.” There is a passage in the Dhammapada that reads simply, “With our thoughts, we make the world.” The Buddha was just as much a sage and Master of the reality of this as was Hermes Trismegestus, a potent reminder of his own statement that “there were countless Buddhas before me, and shall be countless Buddhas after.” Not just a point in fact that many others understood the interconnectedness of all things, but the fact that this very body is the body of the Buddha, this very world is the Lotus Land.” We are all Buddhas, just as much as we are all “don’t know”, as Bodhidharma put it.

    The rejection of the concept of duality must be taken carefully, like the medicine that it is. The correct amount to heal the sickness, too much is just as bad. The ancients also knew that all things in the world shared the aspect of polarity, but as with Zen, knew that things were circular in that the extremes of any one thing depended entirely on where one stood on that ever continuous circle, and that in fact that circle was a single unbroken ‘Whole”.

    Need proof? For those who’ve received Jukai, look at the Bloodline chart you received. The Source is pure circle, which goes first to Shakyamuni Buddha our Master (also represented by a circle), then through all our ancestors, to the Venerable Taigu or Jundo, then to you and from you back to the Source…..in a big circle.

    So from that stand point yes, it is not two in that the co-dependant, circular existence of all things is deeply interconnected and from that point of view, there is no difference between a corpse and a flower, but that in no way means that an image of a man with his head crushed is not a vision of brutality and evil. Non Duality is not meant to create people who don’t know the difference between good and evil, compassion and harm. A circle, when viewed from a particular vantage can appear to be a single line, and if stretched out far enough, a single point; the two opposing sides of the circle disappear. Not One, but also not Two.

    Epicurus never really understood that. He required empirical proof on everything, which at first blush may resemble Buddha’s exhortation “Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.” But Epicurus, standing in his Garden, could have easily overheard those last few lines beginning with “But after observation” as they were spoken upon the Stoa. As far as I know, none of the 5 Good Emperors of Rome were Epicurian, but all were Stoics, and that philosophy, at the core of which was Compassion and Equality, were just as Buddhist as we Soto Zen practitioners are Stoics.
    Gassho,
    "Heitetsu"
    Christopher
    Sat today

    Comment

    • Omoi Otoshi
      Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 801

      #62
      God and Zen

      _/_

      Thank you,
      Pontus
      In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
      you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
      now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
      the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

      Comment

      • Ekai
        Member
        • Feb 2011
        • 672

        #63
        Re: God and Zen

        Originally posted by JohnsonCM

        I only had to look at one of those posted pictures to know this: To look at the image of a man with his head split open and say that it is anything other than a cause for deep and abiding compassion, and a proof that evil exists in the hearts and minds of man, is a misdirection and, frankly, perversion, of the essence of Zen.
        You know, I am glad you mentioned this. I was going to let this go but I feel I should add something here. I understand that some of us want to make their viewpoint clearly and loudly. That's fine, I think open expression is valued and encouraged here. However, the next time someone decides to post a link to very disturbing and horrific images, I ask that they at least give us a warning. I say this because there are many times my 2-year old sits on my lap while I am on this forum. He does not need to see those images and quite frankly, I don't want to see them either.

        Gassho,
        Ekai

        Comment

        • alan.r
          Member
          • Jan 2012
          • 546

          #64
          Re: God and Zen

          I agree with the above two posts. When I tried to interpret Chugai's intentions,I mentioned that the skillfulness of the methods seems debatable. To me, it's too extreme and a bit overcooked.

          That being said, Johnson, Good and Evil is shaky ground. Evil, especially, sounds is so static sounding, unchanging. Much like trying to define God. Certainly the pictures Chugai posted are cause for concern and compassion. Like Daido mentions, one can see anger, greed, violence, etc, in those photos, but as soon as we start labeling some things as "evil," we limit the world. In Buddhism, we might say that the causes of suffering are evil: delusion, selfishness, hatefulness. But if we do that, if we say these things are evil, then we're pretty much all evil. This is meant to be only a slight disagreement. I see your point and agree in a general way: non-duality and the path we are on is certainly not meant to blunt or dull our moral compass, but to sharpen it and I would say, to make us more open: to not immediatley label "evil" and to not immediately label "good." Some things are morally transparent, clearly wrong, hateful, selfish, but evil?

          As soon as we divide the world up, Good and Evil, we stick the universe in place and then we really have our hands full: that act is good, that one evil. How could one possibly figure this all out? For instance, what of the children who are taken by Kony and made to kill their parents, etc. Then later in life, they are killers? Are all their acts evil, or none of them, because someone else made them start on such a path? Or are only a few, the ones they do on their own as adults? To me, it is not evil that is the problem.

          The human psyche is a fragile thing, and while bad deeds are done in the world, I think it stems from ignorance not evil.

          When people see some things as beautiful,
          other things become ugly.
          When people see some things as good,
          other things become bad.

          -Lao Tzu

          It is not that there is good and bad in the world, it is that we see some things as good which in turn creates the bad. We create the fight between good and evil; this fight is in us, too. That is Zazen, letting the fight go. Ideally, if we can let go our views, like Good and Evil, an open, compassionate, freeness will open up and so-called evil will dissipate and there will be no one to worry about trying to be good.
          Shōmon

          Comment

          • JohnsonCM
            Member
            • Jan 2010
            • 549

            #65
            Re: God and Zen

            This is true until you remember that good and evil are within us all just as shown by the Yin Yang. Non duality is also the acceptance that these and all things in every possible degree exist in ever heart and every mind. This is an aspect of karma which we have the choice of allowing to control us or not. If the causes of suffering and the three poisons were not evil then why do we have the bodhisattva vows? Why not simply have the vows rewritten to say "eh. Whatever "?
            Gassho,
            "Heitetsu"
            Christopher
            Sat today

            Comment

            • alan.r
              Member
              • Jan 2012
              • 546

              #66
              Re: God and Zen

              Originally posted by JohnsonCM
              This is true until you remember that good and evil are within us all just as shown by the Yin Yang. Non duality is also the acceptance that these and all things in every possible degree exist in ever heart and every mind. This is an aspect of karma which we have the choice of allowing to control us or not. If the causes of suffering and the three poisons were not evil then why do we have the bodhisattva vows? Why not simply have the vows rewritten to say "eh. Whatever "?
              Hi Chris (sorry, I didn't see your name before). I see what you're saying and agree; perhaps we're only having a verbal disagreement about the word "evil." I'm not intelligent enough to figure that one out. I'm only suggesting that, positing it in the way you have above, one form of the trap then becomes this: I'm a bad/evil person and I need to get better and become good.

              Gassho,
              Alan
              Shōmon

              Comment

              • Rev R
                Member
                • Jul 2007
                • 457

                #67
                Re: God and Zen

                If I take a lamp and shine it toward the wall, a bright spot will appear on the wall. The lamp is our search for truth, for understanding. Too often we assume that the light on the wall is God. But the light is not the goal of the search; it is the result of the search. The more intense the search, the brighter the light on the wall. The brighter the light on the wall, the greater the sense of revelation upon seeing it! Similarly, someone who does not search, who does not bring a lantern with him, sees nothing. What we perceive as God, is the byproduct of our search for God. It may simply be an appreciation of the light, pure and unblemished, not understanding that it comes from us. Sometimes we stand in front of the light and assume that we are the center of the universe. God looks astonishingly like we do! Or we turn to look at our shadow, and assume that all is darkness. If we allow ourselves to get in the way, we defeat the purpose; which is to use the light of our search to illuminate the wall in all its beauty - and in all its flaws. And in so doing better understand the world around us.
                ~ G'Kar: Babylon 5

                Comment

                • JohnsonCM
                  Member
                  • Jan 2010
                  • 549

                  #68
                  Re: God and Zen

                  Here is the thing, if you took 100 people from every age of man and asked them to define evil you will have a million answers each somewhat different, but with similar underlying themes. This is true of all peoples and all continents. These commonalities are what enabled modern psychology to develop archetypes. Why do you suppose that is? Like our old friend the MU dog, all things have Original nature. Why should Good and Evil be different? The trick is having the proper understanding of it. Which, admittedly, I can't say I have or I would already have actualized the Buddha nature within me..
                  Gassho,
                  "Heitetsu"
                  Christopher
                  Sat today

                  Comment

                  • alan.r
                    Member
                    • Jan 2012
                    • 546

                    #69
                    Re: God and Zen

                    Hi Chris, I don't know the answer to your question. One thing I thought of: yin yang is not about good and evil. It is about light and dark, or male and female, or high and low, or empty and full. But look at it this way: what is good about light and bad about dark? What good about empty and bad about full or vice versa? Or, the polar thing you posted: what good about + and bad about -? For example, good and evil are not complimentary, whereas male and female are, and therefore good and evil have nothing to do with yin yang; that is my understanding of yin yang, etc, I could be wrong.

                    Looking at an terrible event and saying "that's evil or that's bad" is totally worthless. Looking at a terrible event and having compassion and saying "what can I do to help?" is much different.

                    In any case, I don't know. I'm probably way off on all this, and I'm fairly tired from a long day of work, so I'm going to call it quits with posting. I just wanted to let you know I'm bowing out for a time and not just not replying to you. I've enjoyed the discussion.

                    Gassho,
                    Alan
                    Shōmon

                    Comment

                    • disastermouse

                      #70
                      Re: God and Zen

                      Originally posted by JohnsonCM
                      Here is the thing, if you took 100 people from every age of man and asked them to define evil you will have a million answers each somewhat different, but with similar underlying themes. This is true of all peoples and all continents. These commonalities are what enabled modern psychology to develop archetypes. Why do you suppose that is? Like our old friend the MU dog, all things have Original nature. Why should Good and Evil be different? The trick is having the proper understanding of it. Which, admittedly, I can't say I have or I would already have actualized the Buddha nature within me..
                      Much of modern Psychology is Behavioristic or Pharmacological - it doesn't deal much with Archetypes at all.

                      As for evil - all just a terrible misunderstanding, IMHO.

                      Chet

                      Comment

                      • Omoi Otoshi
                        Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 801

                        #71
                        Re: God and Zen

                        The problem with labelling something as evil is that we stop right there. We don't seek to understand. Why did terrorists fly two airplanes into buildings with thousands of innocent people in them on 9/11? Because they were evil. OK, that explains it.

                        If we could only see everything clearly, there would be a long chain of causes and effects behind behind these evil acts. Very few people if anyone come to this world naked and just plain evil. So just as strictly speaking there are no enlightened people, only enlightened acts, I don't believe in evil people either. Every evil-doer has probably had moments of kindness in his or her life. Almost all of us are all capable of evil acts. Psychologic experiments have shown this very clearly. Like the one in which an authority told the participant to give their victim electrical chocks until they screamed with pain and even turned silent. Almost everybody did it, just because an authority told them they must do it.

                        In Zen we practice actualizing Buddha in our lives, but every day people are also trained in the opposite way, in greed, hate and delusion, by parents, society, the army, their boss. What makes someone capable of putting a chainsaw to someone's throat while the victim has his hands tied behind his back? Training. During military training (at least some) you are broken down and then the broken pieces are put together again, but without the empathy that would make you useless as a soldier, a professional killer. Then war perfects the training. The killings and atrocities you are forced to carry out slowly grinds away all remaining traces of empathy. Seeing your comrades die feeds the fear, anger and hate.

                        So yes, there is evil in the world, but I believe we should always try to see the bigger picture, the karma behind it all. Change what we can, although in the ultimate sense, there is nothing in need of change. Compassion is about wanting to change what we know deep inside is wrong. And compassion is the heart of the Bodhisattva Way in my view.

                        Zen buddhist practice doesn't turn you into a cold-hearted indifferent bastard. It helps us see and accept things exactly the way they are, without adding all the extra. But it doesn't mean we have to resign. We can and should still endeavor to do good and avoid doing harm. To me, this is vitally important.

                        Gassho,
                        Pontus
                        In a spring outside time, flowers bloom on a withered tree;
                        you ride a jade elephant backwards, chasing the winged dragon-deer;
                        now as you hide far beyond innumerable peaks--
                        the white moon, a cool breeze, the dawn of a fortunate day

                        Comment

                        • alan.r
                          Member
                          • Jan 2012
                          • 546

                          #72
                          Re: God and Zen

                          Originally posted by Omoi Otoshi
                          The problem with labelling something as evil is that we stop right there. We don't seek to understand. Why did terrorists fly two airplanes into buildings with thousands of innocent people in them on 9/11? Because they were evil. OK, that explains it.

                          If we could only see everything clearly, there would be a long chain of causes and effects behind behind these evil acts. Very few people if anyone come to this world naked and just plain evil. So just as strictly speaking there are no enlightened people, only enlightened acts, I don't believe in evil people either. Every evil-doer has probably had moments of kindness in his or her life. Almost all of us are all capable of evil acts. Psychologic experiments have shown this very clearly. Like the one in which an authority told the participant to give their victim electrical chocks until they screamed with pain and even turned silent. Almost everybody did it, just because an authority told them they must do it.

                          In Zen we practice actualizing Buddha in our lives, but every day people are also trained in the opposite way, in greed, hate and delusion, by parents, society, the army, their boss. What makes someone capable of putting a chainsaw to someone's throat while the victim has his hands tied behind his back? Training. During military training (at least some) you are broken down and then the broken pieces are put together again, but without the empathy that would make you useless as a soldier, a professional killer. Then war perfects the training. The killings and atrocities you are forced to carry out slowly grinds away all remaining traces of empathy. Seeing your comrades die feeds the fear, anger and hate.

                          So yes, there is evil in the world, but I believe we should always try to see the bigger picture, the karma behind it all. Change what we can, although in the ultimate sense, there is nothing in need of change. Compassion is about wanting to change what we know deep inside is wrong. And compassion is the heart of the Bodhisattva Way in my view.

                          Zen buddhist practice doesn't turn you into a cold-hearted indifferent bastard. It helps us see and accept things exactly the way they are, without adding all the extra. But it doesn't mean we have to resign. We can and should still endeavor to do good and avoid doing harm. To me, this is vitally important.

                          Gassho,
                          Pontus
                          Yes, thank you so much. Exactly what I've been trying to say and utterly failing at saying. Again, thank you for these words.

                          Gassho,
                          Alan
                          Shōmon

                          Comment

                          • Shujin
                            Treeleaf Unsui
                            • Feb 2010
                            • 1096

                            #73
                            Re: God and Zen

                            Pontus, I appreciate the general sentiment of your post and your insight in general. As someone who comes from three generations of combat veterans, and works alongside them everyday, I am taken aback by your statement that the military trains men & women in greed, hate and delusion.

                            Of course there are criminals, miscreants, and malcontents serving in the armed forces. They're in every profession. The vast majority of veterans I know are quite compassionate, and empathetic. As hard as it is for some people to believe, most vets don't return from war as a psycopaths or curled into the fetal position.

                            Anyhow, as zen Buddhists let's not kid ourselves. We're a group of individuals, not some religious A-Team.

                            Gassho,
                            Shujin
                            Kyōdō Shujin 教道 守仁

                            Comment

                            • Jiken
                              Member
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 753

                              #74
                              Re: God and Zen

                              Originally posted by Shujin
                              Pontus, I appreciate the general sentiment of your post and your insight in general. As someone who comes from three generations of combat veterans, and works alongside them everyday, I am taken aback by your statement that the military trains men & women in greed, hate and delusion.

                              Of course there are criminals, miscreants, and malcontents serving in the armed forces. They're in every profession. The vast majority of veterans I know are quite compassionate, and empathetic. As hard as it is for some people to believe, most vets don't return from war as a psycopaths or curled into the fetal position.

                              Anyhow, as zen Buddhists let's not kid ourselves. We're a group of individuals, not some religious A-Team.

                              Gassho,
                              Shujin
                              I second this. Pontus you paint your picture with too broad a brush on this one. Some of these greedy killers are some of the most compassionate are caring individuals I have ever met and worked with. All sides must be considered including things which seem like contradictions.

                              Daido

                              Comment

                              • alan.r
                                Member
                                • Jan 2012
                                • 546

                                #75
                                Re: God and Zen

                                Originally posted by Omoi Otoshi
                                During military training (at least some) you are broken down
                                Guys, read a bit closer. Some, not all. I read this as an echo to the Kony reference I made earlier.

                                Gassho,
                                Alan
                                Shōmon

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