Mirrors reflecting mirrors

[Kyosei]

Hi, all.

Let me tell you something that happened some time ago, and let my mind full of questions...

I was doing zazen, when here it came the image of a mirror reflecting a mirror, that "infinite" perspective, and a thought crossed my mind:

"Who is thinking?"

Despite my efforts on follow to where that thoughts started (on the mirror´s images), I couldn´t find the point.

Well, when the period ended, I was kinda "scaried" on that new perspective... is there a "me"?

If there´s not a "me", who am I? In a flow of "happenings" why do I think something is produced by me?

Of course I did not expect you to answer things like that, here.

I just want to know...should I follow this kind of thoughts when it arouses in my mind during Zazen time? or should I let it be and not give importance to it? because it brought to me new perspectives on my life, the way I think about me...the world, reality... is that just more mental "garbage"? illusions? what should I do?

Can we use Zazen to pursue thoughts like that?

[Kyosei]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

I thought it was important to mention that despe the fact that I am currently doing zazen in a Zen Temple, I am doing it by myself, so I never had an opportunity to ask nobody about anything that happened during those periods... (I´m kind of shy, also...)

[Rich]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

Good questions Marcos. The mirror analogy is used a lot in zen. Like mind is a mirror reflecting what comes before it. The mirrors reflecting mirrors reminds me of all the individual mirrors reflecting each other. But unless I'm analyzing or considering a situation I don't pursue such thinking.

[Taigu]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

Hi Marcos,

In sitting, we don't chase or pursue thoughts, thoughts about Buddha are not Buddha, just thoughts. Thoughts about the nature of enlightenment can be impresive, entertaining and we relinquish them, drop them, let them go. Thoughts will take you away from this place, this body-mind, and all we do is to stay here and now. I am sure Jundo has a lot more to say about this.

gassho

Taigu

[Jundo]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

I am sure Jundo has a lot more to say about this.

I will try not to pour too many more thoughts on top of thoughts. 8)

In a mirror reflected in a mirror, where do the reflections begin and end? GOOD QUESTION! :shock: However, I would just "let it be" as Taigu says ... especially while sitting Shikantaza, don't think about them.

Shikantaza is just sitting -AS- the mirrors without thinking, philosophizing and pondering about what is reflected in them. The mirrors (like Buddha) reject nothing appearing in the mirrors, holding and showing all ... big and small, beautiful or ugly to human eyes. Sit like that.

Zen Teacher Taigen Leighton recounts this story about Fazang, a great teacher of Huayan (Flower Ornament) Buddhism ...

Another time, Fazang illustrated the Huayan teachings for Empress Wu by constructing a hall of mirrors, placing mirrors on the ceiling, floor, four walls, and four corners of a room. In the center he placed a Buddha image with a lamp next to it. Standing in this room, the empress could see that the reflection in any one mirror clearly reflected the reflections from all of the other mirrors, including the specific reflection of the Buddha image in each one. This fully demonstrated the unobstructed interpenetration of the particular and the totality, with each one contained in all, and with all contained in each one. Moreover, it showed the nonobstructed interpenetration of each particular mirror with each of the others.

...

A frequently cited expression of this vision of reality is the simile of Indra’s Net from the Avatamsaka Sutra, which was further elaborated by the Huayan teachers. The whole universe is seen as a multidimensional net. At every point where the strands of the net meet, jewels are set. Each jewel reflects the light reflected in the jewels around it, and each of those jewels in turn reflects the light from all the jewels around them, and so on, forever. In this way, each jewel, or each particular entity or event, including each person, ultimately reflects and expresses the radiance of the entire universe. All of totality can be seen in each of its parts.

http://archive.thebuddhadharma.com/index.html

Just sit with that ... no need to think about that ... especially during Zazen.

Gassho, J

[Jinyo]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

....something that confuses me - I experience a contradiction between 'letting be' and 'investigating?'

Also, if I sit 'with' - how is this 'not thinking' - or concentrating in some way which inevitably involves thought? :?

Sorry - this is surely one of those perennial questions which Jundo and Taigu have to keep answering over and over again. ops:

Gassho

Willow

[Ryumon]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

If there is no one to see a reflection in a mirror reflected in a mirror, does that reflection exist?

[Rich]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

....something that confuses me - I experience a contradiction between 'letting be' and 'investigating?'

Also, if I sit 'with' - how is this 'not thinking' - or concentrating in some way which inevitably involves thought? :?

Sorry - this is surely one of those perennial questions which Jundo and Taigu have to keep answering over and over again. ops:

Gassho

Willow

In a previous 'lifetime' when I had a difficult problem at work to solve, I would spend hours analyzing and investigating possibilities and no solution seemed to work. When I completely let go of the problem sometimes a solution would appear seemingly out of nowhere. This ability to let go seems to allow wisdom to function. Some of my thinking and feeling habits are so deep it will take a lifetime of practice to let them go but the freedom to just be is ...........

[Jinyo]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

Hi Rich - I think I might have been coming from the opposite direction (probably not very clearly).

Also - still reflecting on Will's post 'Investigate'.

What I was trying to express is a contradiction that my mind puzzles over (possibly a misunderstanding on my part)
between 'we should investigate one thousand points ....' (Dogen - on sitting) and 'to study the self is to forget the self'.
It's like be vigilant/investigate - don't be vigilant/investigate - at the same time.

I find I naturally gravitate to 'not thinking' - or at least to hold 'thinking on not thinking' . I'm sure that's because I live a fairly peaceful
life just now -and 'am fortunate to have a breathing space from having to make major decisions. It is of course just a brief respite,
something will no doubt come along - dukkha is only ever a single breath away. But what is really noticeable to me is that zazen has
helped me to release my mind from endless rumination. Even when the present is peaceful we can always trash it by fixing on pain
from the past!

I'm probably just complicating things - better to just sit - yes?

Gassho

Willow

[Omoi Otoshi]

Mirrors reflecting mirrors

What I was trying to express is a contradiction that my mind puzzles over (possibly a misunderstanding on my part)
between 'we should investigate one thousand points ....' (Dogen - on sitting) and 'to study the self is to forget the self'.
It's like be vigilant/investigate - don't be vigilant/investigate - at the same time.

Hello Willow!
Yes, it may seem like a contradiction! But this investigation doesn't have to involve discursive, analytical thinking. If and when during Zazen you find yourself in a state where this discursive thinking drops away completely, that is where this non-thinking investigation is most obvious, at least for me. If you don't, no worries. Zazen shouldn't turn into chasing after any special states and I suspect in some ways it may even be better to learn this form of mindful, curious, non-thinking exploration of what is in this moment the hard way and not be dependant on any special circumstances. Sometimes, when I have the time to do nothing, I like to just ask myself "what is this", open the hand of thought and just sit, walk or whatever it is that I'm doing. But I'm afraid I almost always feel I have something more important to do...

I'm probably just complicating things - better to just sit - yes?

That's what I'm telling myself!

Gassho,
Pontus

[Rich]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

Yes we always seem to be complicating things so its better to just sit. But since you brought up dogens. Investigating 1000 points. And study the self to forget the self. Here's my free opinion.
Without investigation we don't understand how to live- what to do. But with too much investigation we miss the whole point of living. So there has to be some kind of balance and that's forgetting the self.

[Jinyo]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

Hi Rich - yes, thanks for that. It is important to have a balance.

Pontus - your comment about non-discursive thinking - that really helped. It's almost like I'm having to give myself permission
to enjoy/feel at ease with non-thinking :roll:

Gassho

Willow

[will]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

mpdalles
and a thought crossed my mind

There you go. Practice.

------------

What Taigu and Jundo said.

Gassho

W

[Kyosei]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

Thank you all for the kind answers, most specially Sensei Taigu and Sensei Jundo.

So, let´s zazen! (can I use this word as a verb?)

(I just can´t hold curiosity, sorry!) - If there is no start nor end on thinking neither "individual" beings, why do we think as individuals? why do we think we are individuals? who is the "I"? that´s the kind of thinkings that are arising since that zazen...

Another question, sorry, but If I wasn´t provocating that kind of thoughts during Zazen (mirrors, that question - "who´s thinking", et cetera.) why did those thoughts/questions arose?

I´m becoming most interested in Zen, as I´ve ever been truly interested in the "awakening"... I can say this is my "life" interest... so I beg you sorry if I ask so many questions, or if my questions seems like children mish-mash...

[will]

Re: Mirrors reflecting mirrors

(I just can´t hold curiosity, sorry!) - If there is no start nor end on thinking neither "individual" beings, why do we think as individuals? why do we think we are individuals? who is the "I"? that´s the kind of thinkings that are arising since that zazen...

Another question, sorry, but If I wasn´t provocating that kind of thoughts during Zazen (mirrors, that question - "who´s thinking", et cetera.) why did those thoughts/questions arose?

I´m becoming most interested in Zen, as I´ve ever been truly interested in the "awakening"... I can say this is my "life" interest... so I beg you sorry if I ask so many questions, or if my questions seems like children mish-mash...

No probs. Questions come up during practice, but practice is pretty subtle. That's possibly your koan. Have a look at some the books that they teach around here ie. Shobogenzo and some others.

Gassho

W